This week we took a deep dive into stats and trends we're seeing across all of our Buzzsprout podcasters from 2019 AND offering our takes on some of the 2020 podcast predictions floating around the web.
Two articles worth reading:
This week we took a deep dive into stats and trends we're seeing across all of our Buzzsprout podcasters from 2019 AND offering our takes on some of the 2020 podcast predictions floating around the web.
Two articles worth reading:
because, as a podcast host to we want to innovate. We want to go beyond what Apple might be offering or what might be offered by Spotify. But right now, those kind of partnerships don't exist. And so would be great if an overcast or somebody like that work with us. Proud on that.
If you're listening, you are Marco. Yes, way love. We love your app. Uh,
give us a call that's gonna get edited out. I can tell. Hey, guys,
Welcome back to Buzz Cast. First episode of the New Decade were excited You're here. We got usual suspects plus a brand new iPhone in the background. Okay, that was that. Was that a base camp pan under the show? Tom Way. So? So That is Thea the silvery pipes of our very own Tom Rossi. Um, Tom, for anyone who hasn't met you at a podcast, meet up for a conference or anything like that. Why don't you just do like a quick 32nd bio of who you are, but sprout and kind of your role here.
Great. Yeah. I'm one of the co founders. Kevin and I started Buzz proud. Ah, while ago, I'm more on the technical side. So I run. Ah, lot of the coding and everything on the back end that doesn't that users don't actually get to see. But they could experience. So
Tom's also knows podcasting is bad. Boy, you might have seen a pot fest. Podcast message. Traffic diversion right around No one wheel.
Yes, I may. I may have taken my one wheel to some podcasting conferences. Well,
you got it. You gotta have
fun. You gotta have fun. Um, so as we wrapped up 2019 going into 2020 we thought it could be cool to look at just some internal statistics that we have access to for bus sprout as faras. How many episodes were published, How many plays we recorded and just some different things that we're seeing as faras listener behavior. Thio potentially give you some things to think about moving forward, strategy wise for how to best utilize, uh, your podcast and the devices that you wanna make sure that you're on and things like that. So, Tom, I know that you went through the database and pulled all these cool numbers for us. So why don't you kind of run us through some 2019 numbers for both sprout. Sure, sure,
I think. Uh, one of most exciting numbers for for 2019 bus proud podcasts published 444,000 episodes. That's a lot of episodes. That's pretty exciting. That's a lot of content that's been pushed into the podcasting community that's hosted on the bus brought platform. We recorded. Ah, 192 million plays for buzz about users. Also, that's that's a lot of data to keep up with. I think you guys have heard me talk about the amount of data that we're capturing, but yeah. So, uh, the average duration This was interesting. The average duration. What do you think it would be, Alban?
I'm gonna be
your 34 minutes 34 minutes. Almost 35 minutes is the average duration Of those 444,000 episodes. The average generation was about 35 minutes. Um, which I would have I would have guessed. Somewhere around there. That makes a lot of sense.
Do we know if that's going up or down? Do we have any ideas? First trends? I
know it took me all the police for 2019 I can't imagine going back and pulling for 20 years. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense
to me, cause you have, especially recently, a lot of shorter podcasts with, like, 5 10 minute episodes. But then you've also got the two hour the human behemoth podcasts that we're all very familiar with. So that makes sense to see that number kind of in between those in between those two spots.
Yeah. And then when we we broke down the plays into the apse that people are using, this was also really interesting. Not surprising. Apple was 49%. So 49% of our players came from apple. Uh, I think what was interesting. Spotify Spotify is that almost 22%. So in our number two position, Spotify quickly. I mean, they just exploded into the market. So 22% on and then the next one after that is just Web browsers. People listening on their web, either on ah, Mac or a PC using the Web browser accounts for 8%.
So So what? That'd be like embed players and things like that.
Yep. Yep. They're using Either are the bus brought embedded, player or they're embedding it themselves on. So people are actually listening to it with a Web browser, and that accounts for just over 8%.
Yeah, that was surprising to me, because I think the well, the thought, I guess in the just the podcasting spaces, like whoever listens to a podcast on a desktop or laptop, it's in your car. It's why you're working out. It's when you're on the go. And so this was interesting to me to see that to me, it just validated the importance of you need to have some kind of Web presence. You can't solely rely on getting into APS if you really want to maximize your your audience. Size
one. They have
seen, too. Just when I'm looking at links, there's people now who are sending out email newsletters and they linked directly to the MP three.
You know, I
don't know if you're seen. Would that show up is a Web browser player since being played through a browser? Yeah, yes, I think that's interesting. Seeing more people do that kind of like email newsletter for their podcast.
I would not like that. I
don't think it's a strategy we recommend.
Yeah, Kevin's looking at me like don't get people thinking about building,
not not sending out an email newsletter, sending out an email newsletter as the
distribution for your episodes.
I had had somebody in support. They were asking about embedding the episode they actually wanted.
No, no, no, no, no.
I don't want to do that. Ah, lot of people have strong opinions about they consume their podcasts and so being able to use their app of choice rather than click on a link. And then it's popping some browser that just happens to be their default browser. And, yeah, you don't want that.
All right, So this is the top three and then, uh, give us a couple more, maybe two or three more?
Um, well, it drops off pretty quick. So after Web browsers, you get to Apple iTunes. So this would be, ah, people downloading it with Apple iTunes, Apple music. It's not the actual podcast app on That's 4% and then cast bucks, which I didn't expect to shoot. Show Up. So high was at 2.6% one that
was down there. That kind of surprised me. Pot being has 1%. That's pretty crazy. Yeah, they have. Ah anap overcast on Lee 1.75%. It's kind of a surprising to me since I consume all my podcast there. I imagined it to be pretty in line with my numbers at 100% without without the
without the bus for office staff overcast with about 1.5. Um
but I mean, this is
also this is captured across Apple and Android devices as well. Um, where overcast is only an apple apple app.
Yeah, we've looked at some new ways to I think stitchers at 1.46% and stitcher will go up because we found some new ways of identifying stitchers. The nature of stitcher is that a lot of people consume it on the stitcher website somehow and so we've now started to capture that a little bit different. So right now some of the stitcher plays have counted his web browser, but moving forward, they're being count counted as stitcher. So I would expect that that stitch your number go up
okay? Yeah, and I do want to dig into a little bit of kind of what you're foreshadowing here, which is talking about how we count place. So I think that would be an interesting just thing to discuss. But keep going through the other stats that you pulled for us for us. About 2019.
I looked at some of our location data. Uh, United States accounted for just 52 a half percent. So 52 a half percent of our plays came from the United States. The United Kingdom was 7%. I would have thought it would have been double digits for sure. So I was surprised. Ah, the UK was 7% followed by Canada, Just over 5% in Australia, just over 33.8. So
so lots of English speaking countries. Um, but I know we're seeing a lot in America. Kind of were a lot more Spanish speaking countries are actually getting into podcasting. Ever seen interesting to see how they grow?
Yeah, well, when we were even having a conversation off the mic that ah, you know, some of it is you'll have countries that have a high listener rates as a per capita percentage, but then they're just population isn't super huge. So, like South Korea, I think for the last several years has been the ah, biggest podcasting country as faras the number of the percentage of people that listen, it's something ridiculous, like 80%. Um, but they only have 15 million people. So that number is always gonna trail behind larger countries, even if they have a smaller percentage of people who listen,
right? Yeah. So, like, if you look at the United Kingdom,
that was just over 13 million plays that we recorded from from the UK, So it be hard to compete with that
if you're a smaller country. Sure. Yeah. Sorry. Luxembourg Just not gonna
make the list. Ah. Then we take a look at devices. This also had some some interesting information. So Apple iPhone, 56%. So 56% of our plays from 2019 came from Apple iPhones, followed by 20%. So dramatic drop off to the android android accounted for just over 20%. And then number three was the apple watch. So this must be but with the new think terrible watch, they're downloading it. Me, They're actually playing it from the rock watch. And so that accounted for 5.2% of our play activity. Yeah, I'm not
sure how that stat works. I want to dig into that little bit more because I'm wondering if Apple the apple app actually gives us data that we would count as a download or play once that podcast is transferred to the watch versus actually, you know, because we're just getting it when they, when they download it, writes, not really. Listen,
right? So in order for this in order this for this to register as Apple watch, it couldn't have been downloaded to their computer and then sink to their watch
or downloaded to their phone and sink
or download it to the phone requested from the walk. It has to have been requested from the watch so we could dig into that more. But I know when we started, when we started segmenting out the apple watch John Pollard, one of our guys I know he was doing some experiments and he could see those that play activity come across. But when you do that, if you were to download it onto your phone and then played on your watch, it wouldn't even register. We wouldn't know that you played on the watch because all we saw it was you downloaded it to your phone. All
right, so if you're one of these, watch people right in front, tag us on Twitter and let us know how you're using your apple watch to listen to podcasts. That it was learned about you.
Almost 10 million was 9.9 million plays were recorded from Apple Watch well, and then Windows. Windows Computer came in a 4.89% and Apple computer a 3.98%.
Gotcha. So, yes. Oh, definitely. Still see a huge emphasis on mobile devices, but still a sizeable, you know, percentage from computers. So, um, it will be interesting to see Ah, you know, next year if, like Amazon Echo devices will be upon this top five.
Yeah. Yeah, they didn't even show up in our top 10 right now, but I would expect that we'll see some more of
those. Yeah, and I think that there's been a lot of predictions about kind of the impact that Smart devices will have on podcast listening. Um, we'll see how much how many of those come to fruition, but I definitely think it's it's just interesting. It's interesting to see all these things. Or maybe someday we'll see Tesla cars on here is a device so so kind of looking over these stats. Did you guys have any big kind of picture takeaways Or like, things that you noticed that stood out to you or, uh, things that you want to emphasize or focusing on?
I've got one, but it's gonna come up in my predictions. Gotchas. We're talking about predictions we disagreed with. And, uh, we want to jump into that section.
Way will, in a second. That's, um that's a good teaser. That's a good cliffhanger there. Stick around.
Don't switch that dial. You're about to hear my bold prediction. So before
we jump into some 2020 predictions, some things that we're seeing being predicted about the space and then some of her own predictions for 2020 Tom, I know that you and the rest of the team here been doing a lot of work on the back end for ah, for our stats and counting plays and things like that. And so just one kind of teed up to you, cause I know you had a couple things you want to talk through Just training with is interested, like howto my statistics get populated. How do I know that it's, you know, representative of what's actually happening? Those kind of things. So
yeah, yeah, we've been We've been doing a lot of work on our stats, going through them and making improvements. Ah, one of the things that I think people are gonna really be excited about if they haven't already noticed. Ah, we worked with Spotify to remove a delay. What would happen before was Spotify would download the episode and then we wouldn't know about it for two days. And so you have this delay before it would show up in our in our stats database. And so people be like, I'm listening to Spotify. But I'm not recording any plays. And it was real pain. And so we worked with Spotify, and, uh, they were kind enough to drop us an email at 5 30 the day before Thanksgiving and say, Hey, we just switched everything over. So now people are going to request ah plays directly from you. Oh, and by the way, everyone's gonna read, download the episode. If they've already downloaded it once, it will re download it. And so your play activity is gonna be off the charts for the next three days. It was little mind. Yeah, literally. 5 30 the day before Thanksgiving now was already truck trying to troubleshoot what was going on with our servers because there was all this increased activity and I couldn't figure out what's going on. Are our stats numbers air going crazy? Well, what happened was everyone was re downloading. And so ah, podcasters should be aware that for those three days the Wednesday before Thanksgiving and then Thursday Friday they might see some squirrely activity with their plays. And that's just a result of Spotify re downloading episodes on Wednesday and we cut it off. When we found out that's what was happening. They recommended they didn't give us a heads up, but they had recommended earlier. They said, Look, when this happens, you're gonna want to stop counting plays from Spotify for 72 hours. Okay, We would need more than you know. It was actually a negative heads up by the time they told us we had already received a tremendous amount of play activity, so you might see some weird activity related to that. And so that was something that was exciting, though. Because now, whenever anybody listens and Spotify, you'll see that play activity within your bus brought up within an hour or so, Which
is what she would see from all the other podcast, right? Yes. And obviously now they're playing by the playing by the rules, so to speak.
Yeah, yeah. They're giving us the information and letting us, you know, recorded and do everything that we need to do. There was also some squirrely activity to because we were relying on Spotify to tell us location information. And so how they might categorize it based on location may be different in the way that we were. And so sometimes people would see some weird things in their stats, location, information and now all that standardized and we have control over it. So it's a much better experience for them.
A lot of good news
for the 52% of you here in the U. S. Right now I'm going with you. Wow. What were they doing that on right before Thanksgiving? Remember, Spotify is based in Sweden, so they do not celebrate Thanksgiving and they probably just thought we're sending this over on a difficult Wednesday. Why do our American friends never
replied? Exactly. So that was something I was pretty pretty. Ah, impactful. Yeah. Relevance really relevant. We've been spending a lot of time looking at, uh, bought activity and trying to figure out ways of improving giving the kind of information that we just went through and removing activity that suspicious or bought like explain, explain what a body is because they think the sky net. What is what
is a robot doing? The things my body got? Yeah,
this will be an interesting conversation because I think no one really knows there are some legitimate box. There are legitimate bots that go out and they verify that act that ah, episodes air available to be downloaded so they'll make requests to verify that. Yes, this episode is available. And so apple, Google all the big players will have bots that legitimately make requests, and they identify themselves. Hey, I'm a box, so you might not want to count this play activity. And so where it's very easy for us to be able to identify and not count those plays. The problem that we have are I don't want to be malicious spots. They're more like sneaky, sneaky bots and may spoof. They pretend like they're firebox or they pretend like they're apple music. They identify themselves one way as they make their requests. And it becomes very suspicious when we see you know 10,000 requests from the same IP address within a 24 hour period, all identifying themselves as Fire Fox. And they're making requests from everything from a political podcast to a comedy podcast to a religious podcast across all different broadcasts. And so those are the box that air they're the hardest to find and to deal with because the only way to really see them is looking backwards. And at that point where it counted the play activity, you've already you know, you already showed it to your user. And so how are we gonna handle that? And that's been a lot of our conversation, is going through those spots and figure out how we can filter them out and not, you know, deflate our podcast right? And it's important
to note to this isn't a buzz sprout. Ah, you know the thing that just affects us this is any podcast Host deals with pots? Yes. This this is a par for the course. Like welcome to the club, You know, how about activity, right? Um, so,
yeah, I saw someone had made a comment about on the Facebook group. They said something about how bus brought was low on the stat side. Now, can you tell me what do you mean by low on the stats side. And, uh, you know, if you go from one podcast host to the other, your stats shouldn't change other than really bought detection. Like, how are you counting your bots? And so, uh, and how you deal with it, I'd be provide Cem Cem guidance, but it's just guidance. And so even within I A B certified hosts, um, how they do their blacklist, how they identify an I. P address. How do they share that with the rest of the eye? Be people they don't. They don't even agree on on a blacklist for I p addresses. So it makes it really hard for you to get, uh, you know, good good numbers when you compare one to the other. But I can say from from our standpoint, we care about what our podcasters care about, and we want to provide them with good numbers aside, best as we can. But like you said as a server side host, as someone who's serving up the MP three just on Lee so much that we can d'oh to really provide that those good numbers.
Yeah, I actually remember Todd Cochran complaining about this at one point of blueberry, and he said people would move the blueberry and go. My stats just went down by 10%. He's like, Well, you just came from somebody who's not even trying to
stop a hot and I'm back.
I'm trying to identify all these bots like try to provide a benefit to you. And yet you're looking at me like what do you messing up my numbers for me and just roll out like a $4 upgrade where we double your stats? It just like two acts to be like, Yes, this is a great thing.
I think I posted on the Facebook group. I told them I say, Hey, look, if you want, just tell me what you want your numbers to be, I'll go put him in right now I said, Just tell me like if that's what you want. If you just want to feel better about it, just tell me up with the number. You think this is gonna be a new feature, Kevin, I think we should pitch it.
New buzz brought to tell us how many plays you want. This is Tom being the podcast, bad boy,
antagonizing our customers. Those are all about
anyway. What do you want? Your place,
Thio. So, yeah, that's that's what's going on in the world of, ah, stats and some of
the things that were doing there. Yeah. And I know you guys have been working really hard on some new stuff coming out this year, which once that gets released and goes through, Beta will be excited to share it with you here on the podcast. So definitely stay tuned for that's
Yeah, just just put a bow on that stats conversation real quick. I want everyone to feel comfortable and confident that the numbers that you receive in bus brother Good. And tell him you can maybe speak to this a little bit, but I mean it is it's an accurate statement for me to say any legitimate riel download that comes from a person who's interested in listening to your podcast. That number will never be missed.
Absolutely. That's That's one of the hardest things to get across when when you're talking to people about their numbers, accuracy never improves your numbers. The more accurate you are, your numbers never go up. Oh, wow. There's plays that we didn't find before. Accuracy revolves around really identifying plays that are not really legitimate place. And so accuracy will always calls cause numbers to go down. We never miss a legitimate play. The problem are these box and other things that make requests that make themselves look like legitimate plays. But they're really no. And with that,
let's ah, let's put on our soothsayer hats and bring in our crystal balls and make some foolproof predictions for what's gonna happen in the future of podcasting. Um, totally kidding these air all completely subjective. But as with the new year than a decade, there's all kinds of articles like this is what's gonna happen in podcasting. This is what the future holds. Um, I'll link a couple Ah, pretty good articles that like what we're talking about in the show notes if you want to check those out, see what other people think are gonna happen in podcasting. But I thought I'd be a good just be good for us to kind of talk about some predictions that we agree with that. We think, Yeah, that's that's right on that spot on with what we're seeing and what we think is gonna happen. Ah, some also someone's that we disagree with that people are saying
this is gonna happen
and we're like,
uh, pump the
brakes a little bit. Um, And then if you have any kind of unique predictions just from your own kind of perspective, you know, we're all kind of attacking the podcasting space in different ways, depending on our roles and kind of what we do. So just some things that we think may or may not happen. Um, but let's start with, uh, some some predictions that we agree with Alban. You have one. Ah, you want you want to start us off with?
Yeah, Well, a handful of people predicted pretty much the obvious, which is? Podcasting will continue to grow, so I can't not agree with that theme. The amount of available podcast this year grew by 39 a half percent. Um, pretty substantial. Yeah, from somewhere like 617,000 860,000. Not all of this urn pot apple podcasts. Which is why you may see other numbers, but, um, yeah, I mean, that level of growth, I would not expect that to slow down. So I would say being at 1.2 million podcast by the end of next year would not be surprising. And I mean, it only seems like more, More people are wanting to listen. You just heard how apple and U. S. Centric podcasting is in the stats. So I think his Google podcast gets bigger. Is android gets more of a presence? As people in other countries are getting more into podcasting, it's gonna grow. And if anything, I would expect to grow faster, not slower than it's been growing,
right? We're gonna start hitting untapped markets that weren't consuming podcast the way that we have been in the US for the last decade. So you have to say that it will continue to grow. That, I think is an understatement. But even so, like, we're still very early on in the growth curve, right? And you think about we still have fewer than a 1,000,000 active podcasts. When you think about the number of YouTube channels and roadblocks are out there in the world, they're still incredible opportunity. And if you haven't started yet, make sure you could check out our how to start a podcast. YouTube. Siri's, um, that we just, ah, that we just started a couple months ago. We're almost finished with, So
that's that's a really good point that it's never been easier to start a podcast that, I mean, it wasn't that long ago that it was only techies and audio files that were able to really do something like that. And now it's a lot easier for someone to get into a podcast.
We've seen the big shift in the people that are at podcast movement, right. When we started going five years ago, the people of podcast movement were almost everyone was tech like they really understood technical stuff, and now you go and it's people who have an expertise in something, and they're like, Oh, I already have a blogger already have a YouTube general. I'm also doing a podcast as well. So I'm here to learn a little bit about podcasting. It doesn't seem too difficult. And you're like, Oh, cool. Like, five years ago. Be bore. Like, what is the r s s? What is it?
Yeah, I think s o the prediction that I've seen a couple times, which is a different flavor of the one that album mentioned that I agree with is that podcasting is going mainstream. Like, I think 2020 is the year that more people know about podcasting than don't. Because even now, I mean, if you listen to podcasts, you think we'll surely everyone knows what a podcast is. But it's really, like a 45 and under for the most part demographic. Um, And so as it ages up as more and more, uh, celebrities come into the space is more more TV shows start companion behind the scenes podcasts like that's becoming normal, Which is interesting to me, like HBO. Every show they put out there now putting out a podcast. Yeah, to go along with that show, um, and And people are starting to promote it like I was in a movie theater. And, you know, how they have that, like, kind of like pre show with Maria, Menounos says he doesn't think like her thing at the end when she's signing office and make sure you go and listen to my podcast
in a movie
theater, I'm like, Okay, so this is now becoming normal. This is becoming a part of just how we consume media, which is exciting to me. It's exciting to me because then that means they're gonna be more opportunities. More people are paying attention to it. More people are listening. And so uh so yes, so that's That's a prediction that I'm only only agree with. But I'm also excited about.
I think it it goes into to my prediction, which is as it grows and more people get into it is it's got a big bull's eye for people trying to figure out how to make money on it. And that's, uh, the whole, uh, you remember when the iPhone first came out and the app marketplaces, everyone was talking, Ever all I want to build an apple. I got an idea for an app. Here's an apple on a building, you know, like everybody wanted to do an app. And it wasn't long before all the different ways of making money off of your APS started to evolve. And that I feel like is what we're going to see in podcasting is how can we put Oh, it's a free. It's a free app, but they're going to try to figure out how to make money. You're gonna buy gems or you're gonna have to do this or that in
the Clash of Clans podcast.
It's classically ends. Well, I guess I'm gonna listen to the rest. You have to buy 25 gems or you know something that I think that's figuring out how the's he's different. Podcast players are going to be able to monetize it, and I think that's it's arguable whether it's good for the podcaster. But it's certainly something that we're going to see some big changes in the next year. That's my prediction is we're gonna see some big changes in the way it's gonna be more apparent as people are gonna be like, Oh, that's annoying. I used to not be annoyed listening to a podcast, but for some reason now I am annoyed. Yeah, just like Tom's
predictions were gonna see big changes like
that's not a prediction. Wait, You want specific? I think it's gonna be. I think it's gonna be annoying, I think.
Think broadcast. Gonna be annoying?
No, I think players, I think we're going to see the emergence as people talk about exclusive content. For example, the advantage of exclusive content is I can put barriers up for monetization that you don't have a way around because it's exclusive. The only way you're gonna listen to exclusive content is if you pay me a monthly fee or if you click on an ad or if you listen to an ad or if you do these different things. And that's that, I think is what what will see. And it will get in the way of the podcast listener consuming that content in various ways, just like we saw in the APP Marketplace where remember originally, would you pay a dollar 99 or 99 cents for the app? But then they figured out all these other ways to monetize where the app could be free, and I think that's that's what we'll see.
Yeah, it's kind of runs. We have YouTube. YouTube didn't used to be annoying if we could never what YouTube used to be like five years ago. And then they started putting ads in. But you could skip the ads. And then they started putting roadblocks in where you couldn't skip the ads until you watched five seconds. And now you have to watch 15 seconds. And now you might have to watch two ads 15 seconds each before you can skip and ads from the middle ads there in the middle. Yeah, ads. You know, between videos from watching a playlist. I can't skip him
and think about the player right? How much the the YouTube player has changed where now it's just obnoxious that where they're pushing more and more content in your face. I just wanna watch my Star Wars video, and I've got six other ones getting cute up that I don't care about only remotely related to the one that I'm watching. Like stuff like that just drives me crazy. It's annoying, or I find myself saying, Is there a YouTube player That's not YouTube. I wanna watch this video, but I don't actually want to watch it in a YouTube player.
Yeah, that'll be interesting. And I think it be interesting, too, because we're already starting to see new companies come out and say We have fixed podcast monetization like right. We are the bee's knees like go with us and you'll be a millionaire. Um, not in those exact terms, but that's the marketing company suggests, Um and so it'll be interesting to see even the like how it plays out between the podcast APs trying to monetize and then the hosts as well and kind of like the perfect storm of those two things coming together and how that affects the listener experience. I do think it will give a leg up thio independent podcasters that are in control of their own monetization and are making their own choices about Maybe I just promote affiliate products that I like and I think my listeners would like or and I saw my own products or whatever versus some of these bigger podcast, which are a part of these advertising networks where they're dictated. They say you will run these ads and you will talk about these things in this way. Um, I think that could give a leg up as far as a listener experience standpoint to Indy, podcasters versus kind of the mainstream podcasts.
Well, I don't know if it's gonna happen in 2020 but it's certainly shaping up to be, uh, a battle in the future between those Indy podcasters because they're going to say, I don't I don't want you to put up these blocks. I want to be able to put my podcast out, and I don't want you to put your ads on it. And I don't want youto to stop people from listening for various reasons and they're not gonna have a choice. If they want to be on certain networks, they're gonna have to submit to it or not be there. And so that I think, could be I don't know what's gonna happen in 2020 but it's certainly going to happen at some point where Indy podcasters are gonna find themselves at odds with the different podcast players in directories and stuff out there, because they're going to drive their own exclusive content, and that's gonna make it harder for them.
Yeah, yeah, any any productions for you, Kev?
Well, I don't know that I have my own prediction. I might later in the show I don't know that I have my own prediction. I won't talk about right here, but going off of Tom's point, a lot of people are predicting that Apple is going to get into exclusive content. Yeah, and
I was one of those people in my
predictions. Yes. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if that's gonna happen or not if they're working on it, but it would definitely put them in. Ah, in a weird position. They would then have a conflict of interest now that they if they do that, they don't have Now Spotify has that conflict of interest already because they bought who they buy Wonder years gimlet get about. And so they have their own shows. And they also run ads for anybody who uses a free Spotify account. And so there's always there's There was initially some questioning like, Are they running ads in between podcast plays, or are they gonna put ads? And I think none of that is happening yet. Um, but it could happen at any point. Like it makes sense like they have to. They have to make money somehow. And so if you're using that for free and you're listening all its content through Spotify They want Thio at the very least, push you to go premiums to go Spotify premium and start paying them to use their app and listen all your music and exclusive podcasts and stuff on there. So if Apple gets into the game, then that's a question that they're gonna have to face a CZ. Well, like, how do we promote our own shows? And it might not be through audio content in between podcast that you're listening to. It might just be they control the app so they could show you ads for their shows, lots of different things. So far, none of that stuff has ever been a conflict of interest for Apple. Apple has just been this kind of just really nice company that's like, helped support the open, independent podcast ecosystem. Um, but they haven't really had any reason not to do that right, like they want to sell iPhones and computers they don't necessarily need to sell. Subscription service is, but that's changing in a big way subscription service. Is there a huge part of their revenue model now and they're doing exclusive content for Apple TV if they start doing it for Apple podcasts, well, then things could change.
So So now take that prediction. Yes, and combine it with the stats that we looked at from 2019 that 70% of our plays came from Apple and Spotify. So 70% of our plays came from the service. Is that maybe offering exclusive content? They may be putting up a walls. They may block certain podcasts because it compete with their own exclusive content, like
or using independent creators, content to promote their own concept.
Right, Right. So 70% of our play activity came from both of those. And so I think there is a battle shaping up between the indie podcasters and these this different approach. Um, but right now I don't see it. Which is funny because podcasters have a rebel history, right? Podcasters or independent. They talk about things that nobody else is gonna talk about. And they find this niche audience of people there that are also interested in this topic. But right now, they are just going openly with this with this market and I I don't I don't think that they've caught on that. There's a There's a war brewing. There is a battle to be had, and we haven't talked about privacy, but nobody cares. It doesn't seem like a lot of people care about privacy. I literally I posted it just to see I posted on one of the Facebook groups. They say, Does anybody care about privacy? And I got like, two people that responded, so I think
wasn't one of them. Kevin, like 1/3
one. But I think it's related right, because monetization typically happens through selling people's data. And that's one of the ways that it's not just in podcasting. It's something that we, as an entire culture, really are gonna have to deal with in the next couple years is what are we willing to sell? But I think it's all related because 70% of our players are coming from those people that are gonna be considering how they monetize
right and somewhat, and they set the industry in so many ways. Like if Apple does exclusive content, that was that now becomes normal. That now becomes well, that just is how podcast APS behave now, because when Apple does something, everyone else kind of follow suit, Um, so so yeah, something something to pick toe pay attention to. And, ah, you know, we'll continue to support our podcast years
of this weekend. That sounds like Debbie Downer like Long, Uh, I think what's exciting is it's never been easier to podcast. There's still a growing listenership. We have a history of independence in podcasting, and I don't see that going away anytime soon. Yeah, I think there will be some struggles. I think they'll be some battles. I think they'll be some fallout as a result of it. But at the end of the day, podcasting isn't going anywhere. It's got a strong, strong history, and so that's exciting.
Yeah, but will it become the norm at some point in the future for like like it is on with television content now? Well, it's not even television content, but video content. You say, like, Hey, I want to watch the office right while the offices on Netflix. So if you want to catch up, or if you never watch the whole series, you have to be a Netflix subscriber. And I think, wasn't it like friends or something was on Netflix for a long time? It's going away
you have moving over to the new NBC app or
something that's moving to the NBC up is that Is there something that's happening there that the podcast industry might be following? For better or worse, like exclusive content like this show is only available on Apple podcasts, this show is only available on Yeah, who podcasts through podcasts or Spotify podcasts like, Is it terrible? I mean, some people would say it's not a podcast unless it sze openly distributed cross our sets and I can listen any podcast player I want. But I think the general public who are not podcasters or not in the podcast industry like they probably don't care. And this is becoming a more normal way to think like that. If I want that show, I have to go to Netflix to see if I want this show. I go over here to see it over this show. Go to NBC. App to see it?
Yes, you'll have a whole folder of podcasts taps on your phone. You'll be like, Okay, I want to go. Listen, this podcast, which ones that in, and that's what I think, Tom says. It's going to get annoying when you have to have three podcast saps to listen to the shows that you really care about that gets pretty annoying.
Yeah. You know, what would be exciting is if someone took on the anti establishment podcast player. And so what they did was they
feel like that's overcast rain.
Yeah, Like, let's say that overcast said, Look, we're we're gonna be the one that you can always go to. We're never gonna This is how we're gonna monetize, period, right? This is how it is. We're never gonna capitalize on going after people's privacy. We're not gonna do these different things. And so then that way there's always okay, I've gotta listen to Apple Exclusive on Apple of Spotify exclusive on Spotify. But everything else I can go to this other player and they're the ones that I can depend on for providing me with that independent podcast.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's overcast. He's pretty strong in the privacy stuff. And the ad has a specific way of monetizing. Um, yeah,
great. Because as a podcast host to we want to innovate. We want to go beyond what Apple might be offering or what might be offered by Spotify. But right now, those kind of partnerships don't exist. The only standard is the apple standard, right? Like if you want to change our s s or if you wanna add some type of improvements. I mean, if apples not on board, there's no other dominant player. And so would be great if an overcast or somebody like that work with us proud on that. Yeah.
Shut if you're listening. You are Marco. Yes, way love. We love your app. Uh,
give us a call that's gonna get edited out. I could tell way
going to do our predictions that are not gonna happen.
Yes, this is the one I'm actually super excited about. I want I want to hear what you think is not gonna happen because
is always trying to say like, Oh, this is this is exactly what's gonna happen
in this production, like every year. And it's to me just so dumb video podcast that we find it like there's no everyone's like, Well, audio podcasts work. So why not video podcasts? Well, the reason video by guest isn't gonna work is because 70% will know what was it like 80 something percent are on mobile. Everything's mobile, so it's already a little bit less video. And if you want video content and you want to launch it and get distributed widely, well, then people go to YouTube. And so what's the value of paying? Probably hundreds of dollars a month. Tau host your podcast with a host to then try to build an audience that would build, build slower than YouTube and distribute directly to people. And people are gonna download it to their Apple Watch and Washington video like it doesn't make sense. It doesn't leverage the things they're good about. Podcasting and video requires your attention. And when podcasting is this thing that can be answering in the background, you're mowing the lawn here, also listening to a podcast. You at the gym was listening to a podcast, whereas videos like Hey, sit down like make me the primary thing like focus on me. And so it just does not make sense to me that that's the way it's going. Um, and I feel like when we said bus routes on Lee gonna be audio. That was a big deal out of we. Most of the other hosts were doing video. And now I feel like almost all the new podcast hosts aren't even like considering video being a thing because it's not the growing market. It's shrinking in an industry that's growing rapidly. So I think that's always a goofy prediction. I don't think we're gonna see video take off any
time soon. Well, a flavor of that that I've seen come up a couple times is, uh if you look at these studies and you look at how people are consuming just podcast content, including video recordings that are posted on YouTube, they see a disproportionate number on YouTube. Some of that is because it's kind of thrown off by Joe Rogan. Um, but one of the predictions that I didn't that I think is not gonna happen is that YouTube is the next podcasting frontier that you're gonna have all these podcasters not creating podcast there a video podcasts. But they're gonna start YouTube channels. They're going to come. YouTubers. Um, now we have seen quite a few youtubers start podcasts, and I think that is created that false, that false connection of people that were that have a YouTube audience to have you two presidents that are like, Let's let's create a talk show, Let's, you know, start a podcast And they do. And it grows pretty quickly because they have an existing audience. And so they thought that Well, because YouTubers are making the jump to podcasting that will happen in reverse is well, but I just I just don't see that I don't see that happening.
Certainly. I mean, if it does, it's It's different. The Ron Burgundy podcast is different than the anchorman movie, right? It's not the same content. It's a personality. It's a followership. It's it's I've got people that are listening that are interested in this character. And so now I've got another way of getting that content out there. And so I think that that makes sense. I'm not saying that there won't be video content, but it's not gonna be a podcast. I wouldn't call it a podcast. It might be something that the podcaster does that further engages their audience, but in a totally different way. Like what Alban was saying. It's a different experience. When I watched the video versus when I listened to a podcast,
right, and I guess what the thing that I'm just not disagreeing with is that they're gonna be some podcasters that start YouTube channels. I think that will happen. What I'm saying is, it's not gonna outgrow podcasting. Yeah, you're not gonna see tons and tons of podcasters be like, Oh, if I really wanna jump on this growth, I gotta get into YouTube a cz. Well, I don't see that happening. Right.
It sounds like a roadblock, right? In order to do it. If you're gonna do a podcast, you have to have a YouTube channel. No, that's crazy talk. That's not you don't do that.
Well, it's not to say that YouTube isn't a great way to grow your podcast. You know, if you look at what Joe Rogan is doing and he being the poster child for being able to utilize both mediums very effectively, his show's go anywhere between two and four hours. His podcast show itself, and it is the number one podcast that's hosted by a competitive. But they always say it's the number one, so I would just trust their numbers on that. It's absolutely number one podcast. If you look at his YouTube channel, they do record those three or four hour episodes. But those are not the videos that have the huge viral play numbers. That's where he's really making. His moves on YouTube was with the jerry clips of the Joe Rogan experience clips. Those videos are usually 10 minutes or less. There, topical. They're about a subject matter that could go viral and spread like Crazy and those of the videos that are getting hundreds of thousands of plays. His three or four hour long videos are not getting millions of plays each, and I don't know how many YouTube followers he has or whatever, but he's using YouTube as a way to grow his following and to find new listeners. And then when you really want to listen to the Joe Rogan experience, you will subscribe through a podcast player and you will. That will be like what you listen to in your car all week, cause it's four hours long. But I think very few people are actually going to YouTube to sit there in front of their phone or their computer for three or four hours and watch your video
right well on the other thing. And Tom's talked about this couple times is, it is compared to like the other mediums that you could jump into to start sharing ideas and things like that. Podcasting is arguably, like the easiest. It's easiest to get into right when you compare it to blog's and video. Like the ops we've. We've experienced this growing our own YouTube channel. Um,
it is a lot of extra work to
create high quality videos that will do well on YouTube versus creating a podcast that people will subscribe to and listen to every episode. And so the idea that oh, well, now you have to add all these people are gonna be jumping onto this other platform that requires five times as much. Work is the 1st 1 and that may or may not see, like super great results from it. I just don't see that as a prediction of the future of podcasting. I just don't
all right. One of the one of the predictions on the Pacific content blogged post that Travis willing to end the show notes. Somebody said something about we need like a McDonald's of podcast Web hosting. Uh, I I don't really I don't know if this was a picture like this is gonna
mean more saying this Donald's of it like like low quality,
like we need the way
we need a dollar menu of podcasters
way I interpret it as we need a one Central like this is the best, the only place that people host podcasts. Um, so that strikes a chord with me because that to me, sounds like you want a YouTube for podcasting. And that's where I think we get into some of things like Tom was talking about earlier. If we had that again, I don't know if this friction saying it's gonna happen or this person wants it to happen. But either way, I think it's bad, because that's where, where YouTube has become annoying and Thomas saying, maybe podcasting becomes more annoying in the next year or beyond. Um, if we do have that one stop the YouTube of podcasting, the McDonald's of podcasting, whatever you wanna call it, that's where one platform then has the power to make it annoying to start these monetization tactics and strategies that become annoying for everybody. So when you're listening to a podcast on your player of choice, if it's hosted through this one, Central source like there's not a whole bunch of YouTube APS to watch YouTube videos. There's one app. Tow watch, YouTube videos, and that is the YouTube app. If we had that in the podcasting space, then that's where they get the control over. Hey, you can skip this commercial or you can't skip this commercial or we're gonna inject our own ads or we're not, or you have to like. One of things YouTube does is you have to. You know, once your channel gets popular enough where you have the options to monetize your content, let them to start putting in content. If you don't do that, then they don't recommend your videos as much. So then you have to opt into ads. Yeah. Um, so again, I don't know if this person was saying they want it or they think it's gonna happen Either way, I think it would be bad we don't want that to happen. The podcasting ecosystem right now is very distributed, lots of different hosting companies, and that prevents any one company from getting too much power. Yeah, in the space to be able to do things that are super annoying.
Well, in the thing that I think is always a strength when you have competition is that it encourages innovation, like we know that when someone starting a podcast that there other companies that do similar things. And so if we want your business and we want to be able to host your podcast, our product needs to be better are what we offer needs to continue to be better. So that way we stand out so that we were not only worthy of you hosting your podcast with us, but that you are better set up to succeed. So you continue podcast hosting, right? It's in our interest to help you be successful. And so I think having choice and having options and having new people jumping in is good for the podcast host. They're trying to push the medium forward, um, and and are really focused on innovating and so under. That's something that we really were focused on and passionate about. So I see that as a net benefit for us. Other podcast host can offer their own take on it. All right, One prediction that you think might happen that maybe isn't getting as much air time. Um, this could be a unique prediction. Something you haven't seen somewhere else. Ah, and I can go ahead and kick off because ah, I don't know. I think this this could happen, especially with when we were looking at the stats from From Tom earlier about Spotify, which is I think, that podcasts in general will get shorter. And here's why, I think with Spotify getting more and more of a market share, as is introducing itself to new people that aren't used to listening to one and to our podcast to use listening to music playlists were songs or 3 to 4 minutes. That's more of the listening behavior will shift in that direction that people will start sampling podcasts a lot more than they are now. Um, so I'd be like, OK, well, I'll listen to a couple of five minute episodes just to see if this is something I want to add to my playlist or subscribe to um, and so I think as, ah, as podcast suggestion and find ability goes up. And as new people come in that aren't used to listening to one or two our podcasts. But it's on an app where there used to listening to three or four minute songs, then that could affect the podcast that start to do well. We should be the ones that were shorter content and not the to our mega episodes.
Yeah, I think that's, ah, quite possible. I think that's what the head of Google podcast predicted as well. So you're in good company.
I might have to go by and I Android phone? Uh, probably not. Probably not. It would be great, except it's a lot more of my Apple TV. So
I got already got excited and talked about mine because I talked about privacy. I think privacy is no one's talking about that and their predictions that privacy is gonna be something that comes to a head. But I really think it's going to I hope so. I mean, I'm not advocating one position of the other. I'm just saying, I think there needs to be a conversation. There needs to be a conversation about what data people have access to and what do we as a society, feel comfortable monetizing so that I can get my Facebook for free or I could get my podcast for free, so I think that conversation. I haven't seen a lot of predictions about it, but I predict that people will start to ask questions and that will come to a head.
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if sometime soon. Like there's this this turning point moment, right? Like a watershed moment where it becomes at the top of the conversation because right now it's kind of like bubbling below the surface. Certain people are talking about it in certain circles. But I wouldn't be surprised if, like, a similar thing, too. When Alvin, you know that the details of this when the the dad got super upset that Target was sending his daughter, you know, pregnancy related stuff. And he was like, How did you How did you know all this? And, well, it's because they're tracking you on the Internet so they can see your behavior and they can start. Oh, you're searching for these things. That means you're probably pregnant. Um, that
is nefarious. That one example is the kind of the economical over invasion. But that was just like I think that's like a If you stop buying alcohol and you buy prenatal vitamins, we don't you're doing,
um so but I think something like that could very well happen. Which then brings this conversation to the forefront, right?
All right, well, my hot take I'm gonna channel my inner Stephen A. Smith is I think Apple is going to create their own content and is going to be, I think, similar to like what we saw with Apple. Um, plus or what? I'm sorry to be pleasant Apple TV plus And then the
big thing that
happened when Apple TV Plus came out is they go? Well, if we want to be able t o split the cost of making all these shows up among as many people as possible. The way to do that is by being platform agnostic. We're not only going to be on the apple TV, so now Apple TV has can run on all these other devices, and that in the old days was like the opposite of apple if your whole business is selling hardware and the cool thing is the software on top of it and the marriage of this to you never would split the software off. So why were we dealt with these bad keyboards for so long? Because we needed the software. And so it felt like such a big shift when Apple did that. And I'm like, Well, if they're going
to do that
in podcasting, are they also going to say, Well, the Apple Podcasts app which used to which is on Leon Apple Products. Is there a chance that we start seeing that as a Web option? And we start seeing that as a possibly like an android option, and it feels like, No way. That's also dumb. But there's a bit of me that goes, If they do go this whole branded content in exclusive content, they may be tempted to actually go and create an app for Android. So it's not my goingto happen. Prediction. Well, that's my like, Yeah, I'm taking a one in 10 you know, shot from midcourt and hopefully, maybe that'll land.
We'll rewind this a year from now if it happens.
If they were doing you, wouldn't they have already done that with Apple music? Because Apple music, they're trying to make a monthly subscription fee. So it seemed like you would want that to be available on other platforms. I mean, if they really want it. If you really wanted to make money off of his money to
his point that they've done it for the movie, for the video content. They haven't done it for the music content, but
I don't think
they've done it for on Android devices. They don't have an Apple TV plus app for Android, do they? But what's interesting? Like fire
stick, maybe fire? Yeah, I can like some other streaming devices. I
don't I don't think so. I don't think he can get for fire stick.
You might be what? They're doing it on other things. So, like you can buy a TV now, Little Apple TV Plus built in and DVD players will have it built in. But I think the difference here, Alban not totally pushing back I'm just conversationally is
this whole thing saying, I've got a hot take for Kevin to dunk on. You
just think about
it strategically. Like if I go by a Samsung TV, that's not me. Like making a choice to not buy an Apple TV or whatever, right? Like I by Samsung TV, it has Apple TV plus built into it. Has Netflix built into it has all these other video platforms built into it. Great. No, no. Like no big deal. But if I'm a lot of people anyway who by android phones by them Because they're not apple phones. They don't necessarily love Google or love Samsung or the makers of these devices. But they are fundamentally kind of against the whole apple approach to things like it being sandbox and being controlled and being locked down. And they're like, I hate apple on all the stuff that they do. So I'm gonna go buy this android phone. And so I just wonder if there is just a different mindset in the android ecosystem of the people are gonna buy that that if Apple spent the time and money and investment to bring Apple TV plus two android phones, if there would be, like so much pushback against that, it just would never grab me, grab any traction. And I wonder if that's the same problem that they might have if they did it with apple podcasts. And now there's an apple podcast app that I get an android. I just wonder if most android people would be like not downloading an apple out onto my android phone
might encourage Google podcast to start promoting their own app, though, if they now have to compete with Apple's podcast app on their phones.
Yeah, I just wonder if it's a branding thing. Like if they didn't call it Apple podcast, if they just had a better a different brand that was Maur separate from the rest of the apple. Stuff like just feels like Apple podcasts is like Apple phone and stuff like that. Like if there are apple podcast exclusives, are people going to feel like even if they do have an app for Android, they're still gonna feel like I can't listen to them cause I have an android phone or whatever? I don't know. You just did. So
swing back to the Thomas Point. It is right. Um, they're not on or I guess it's your 0.0.2. They're not on Android right now with apple with, ah, apple TV. Plus good night. They've got there on some TVs there on Roque. Ooh, they're on fire TV. They are five. It would seem it just feels to me like if they're going to put all this stuff into exclusive content like Luminary tried to do it and then say, like, Don't you want these shows? And I feel like it was pretty tough because a lot of people were like, I don't know if I want that show. I'm not down living up to find out if I want to show And if you're really you're like don't you really want the show? Why don't you switch phones for my down, let it out and then listen to it? I feel like that's, Ah, there's no there's no ability for you really switch someone for a podcast episode like maybe they go and they throw it on other things just to try to lock down podcasting so that if in five years it's actually like this $10 billion industry, Apple goes okay now we've held onto our space for so long. I think that's why Spotify has grown so much is one reason is they are on Android there across pot for and so it's just that that's a one in 10 shot. So I thought I'd throw that out there, um, 100% guarantee it will happen. Use that part. If we come back,
I will make sure to cut it together, make you sound like a fortune teller. Any final thoughts, guys? 2020. It's here. Uh, we got some cool stuff coming out with Buster out soon that will make sure to tell you about that. We think you'll be super psyched about that. We're super psyched about, um but I think as ultimately 2020 is gonna be a great year for podcasting. So I'm very optimistic about the future and and, uh, the opportunity that we all have toe toe grow our audiences and, you know, start side hustles if that's what you're going for and all of those things, I think podcasting as it continues to grow, there were more opportunities and that the the high quality content that I think we're all striving to put out there is just gonna rise to the top and really continue to be successful.
Yeah, and one of the things you said earlier I think it's been, ah, big topic of conversation first around the office. Like the idea that the more successful are podcasters are, the more successful we will be as a company. And that's something that we're thinking a lot about Going into 2020 is how can we help our podcasters people who podcast using buzz about Is there distribution platform be as successful as possible? It's a big thing that we're pushing into. And so if there's anything that you want to learn or questions that you have, please jump into our Facebook group and communicate with us there. Drop our support team emails. They pass those onto the rest of the team. Um, we wanna help you guys succeed in podcasting and make this the best year for your podcasting journey. That it can be,
you know, sadly like Michael Hyatt. Best year ever.
I'm gonna go write in my full focus planner. Well, that wraps it up for us for this episode. Guys, Thanks for listening, and we'll get you on the next one.