Podcast Movement 2024: Video Podcasting, Ads, and AI

After returning from Podcast Movement in DC, we reflect on the pressures of adding video to your podcast, recognize the growing influence of advertisers and AI at major conferences, and discover how these shifts might impact you as an independent creator. Hear about our adventures and challenges at Podcast Movement in DC, including some humorous travel hiccups and our take on the contrasting vibes between Podcast Movement and PodFest.

Then, get insights into the latest from Apple Podcasts' web layout, the complexities of Patreon's new Apple App Store platform fees, and how these are shaping the future for creators. Plus, find out why we're supporting platforms like Pocket Casts and how you can contribute!

Sound-Off: What experiments have you run on your podcast and how did it turn out?

Links mentioned in the episode: 

• Katelynn's Pickleball Paddles (and Podcast!)
• Buzzsprout Meetup Pictures
• Apple Podcasts on the Web
• Read "How to install Apple Podcasts on Android" by Podnews
• App Store Fees Change for Patreon Creators
• Pocket Casts Adds Ratings

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro: Bad Review
• 2:50 The Decline of Flying
• 6:19 Podcast Movement 2024
• 33:18 Apple Podcasts Web Browser Features
• 51:36 Platform Fee Changes for Patreon Creators
• 1:02:30 Sound-Off!
• 1:18:26 Post Show: Pocket Casts

Transcript

Jordan: 0:00

So you know that I hate reviews. I accidentally saw a new review for Buzzcast.

Kevin: 0:06

In Apple Podcasts?

Jordan: 0:07

and

Kevin: 0:08

Let's do it. Let's pull them up.

Jordan: 0:10

It says that we are too chatty. We got to cut it out. These people are here for podcast content and that is it.

Alban: 0:18

Yeah, it's actually good feedback.

Jordan: 0:19

It's good feedback but you know, maybe text the show instead of leaving that review.

Kevin: 0:25

All right, I found it. Can I read it? This is from App Rover left us a review on August 16th 2024. The title of which was called too much off topic rambling, and then the body says need to stay focused on podcast topics. Suggestion Keep the chit chat at the end, not at the beginning. Two stars.

Kevin: 0:51

I mean you're not wrong, but we're also not going to change anything. So sorry, App Rover.

Alban: 0:55

It's good to get a bad review when the bad review is identifying what you like about the thing you're making.

Jordan: 1:02

You like our off-topic ramblings.

Alban: 1:05

Yeah, that's what I love about this show. I know all the podcast stuff before I come, but I don't know what kind of like goofy thing you and Kevin are going on a 20-minute watch bar rant. So that's what I'm enjoying. Since we read a bad review, can I read a nice one?

Jordan: 1:20

Yeah, let's balance her out.

Alban: 1:22

From Sparkling Dee, friend of the show. I love this podcast. Thanks bunches for making learning fun. Just started my podcast in January 2024 and have learned so much from going back to episode one and listening through your current episodes. Thank you for all you've done and all you help us to learn, grow and succeed. Your newest super fan, Sparkling Dee.

Kevin: 1:42

And Sparkling Dee brought us gift baggies at Podcast Movement she did which were filled with lovely things from essential oils to creams for sore muscles and things to help you sleep and all this wonderful stuff. And I used some of that on my neck after Podcast Movement because we stand all day and so I was tight and tense and it is wonderful stuff. So thank you so much.

Jordan: 2:02

All right, should we get into it?

Kevin: 2:03

I guess, so. Got to keep the chit chat till the end.

Jordan: 2:08

Yeah, we got to be snappy.

Alban: 2:10

To be clear, both of them said the same thing. Dee is saying you made learning fun and I think it's because of all the chit chat. We have to keep the chit chat in and then sparkle in some podcast. Commentary of just like sparkle or sprinkle commentary of just like sparkle or sprinkle, we're going to sprinkle in some sparkly podcast content and if you want just the facts then, like pod news, weekly review is more just the facts yeah there's other shows that are much better at giving you lots of information quickly.

Alban: 2:37

That's not us no, this is where, we chat and you might accidentally learn something along the way.

Jordan: 2:57

Welcome back to Buzzcast, a podcast about all things podcasting from the ever so chatty people at Buzzsprout. Last week was podcast movement in DC and from what I heard, I think things were off to a pretty rough start for anyone flying into the conference on Monday. It sounds like I know our flights were delayed and it sounds like pretty much everyone else's flights were delayed too. So I don't know what was up with the airlines getting in, but the rest of the week was pretty fun. It was a blast.

Kevin: 3:21

Air travel is just broken, completely broken, I know, and I think it's worldwide. I don't even think it's US only.

Jordan: 3:27

Really.

Kevin: 3:27

Because James was flying in from I think he was yeah, he was coming from Australia and he had trouble with his flights as well. It's so, based on my sample size of like six people over the past month trying to do air travel, I can now conclude definitively that it's completely broken, and I think I know why. Why? Because it's too cheap. It's too cheap to travel right now.

Jordan: 3:48

No, it's too cheap to travel. Yeah, no, yep, no, this is what's happening.

Kevin: 3:52

We were standing in line to get on our flight and I was like everyone nobody dresses up to travel anymore. You know and this was a little bit before my time, but you know, back in the days of Pan Am, when you know you could sit in your seat comfortably and have a cigarette and they'd bring you, you know, fresh salmon, a lobster tail, db Cooper.

Kevin: 4:10

Everyone would dress up. Yeah, this is like from Mad Men era. They would dress up because you're doing something. I don't know why, but I'm assuming because it was expensive. It was an expensive way to travel, so you were going to dress to match the occasion and now everyone's standing in line in like tank tops and uh, you know pajama bottoms, and it's ridiculous, kevin's wearing jeans and like a shirt with barely a collar.

Alban: 4:34

There's not really a collar.

Kevin: 4:36

And I look nicer than 95% of the people on that flight.

Alban: 4:39

Definitely better than me wearing gym shorts and an oversized t-shirt.

Kevin: 4:43

Right it was mostly Alvin I was talking about.

Jordan: 4:46

I was directed right at you.

Kevin: 4:48

Yeah, and so I think, because all these airlines are racing to the bottom of getting the cheapest flights possible, you have things like Jordan's flight. Then you guys push back and they're like, yeah, somebody cut our brake lines, so we're going to have to finish the new plane.

Jordan: 5:02

That's literally what happened. Yeah, the flight was like not boarding yet. And then the pilot gets on the intercom at the airport and he's like sorry folks, the brake fluid lines have been severed, so we're going to be working on it and no idea when it's going to be fixed. It's going to be a long time. Bye. They're like great.

Kevin: 5:19

Right. So people are flying more than ever and there's more connections than ever. There's fewer direct flights and this is all a result of, you know, $39 flights and $59 flights, and you can't have any check bags and all this stuff. Oh, it's not real. It's all just a trap to get people to. You know $59 one way to New York, I'll buy that, and then you get in there and it's actually 300 by the time you're done.

Jordan: 5:42

Yeah.

Kevin: 5:42

But they're tricking all these people into flying and we just need to bring back the good old American road trip. That's how most people should be getting around and air travel. Let's just be honest about the prices. It's going to cost you $400 or $500 to fly somewhere and we should all pay that. And we should all put on a collared shirt and some pants and don't take your shoes off when you get on board. And it should work. Brake lines should work, Engines should work.

Jordan: 6:07

Nothing should be severed.

Kevin: 6:08

Things should be on time, all right. So that pretty much summarizes our podcast movement.

Alban: 6:15

Again that that bad review, I gotta be honest totally warranted. But podcast movement itself was a ton of fun. We all got there, we got set up. We have tons of fun being there together as a group and we always say it and it's always true podcast movement, podfest, all of these conferences that we go to it's such a cool experience to be around other podcasters. We all are united by our love of this medium and then we all are different in interesting ways, because people have one other thing they're diehard fans of and they will tell you about it, and you get to learn about so many different little subcultures that you never knew existed.

Jordan: 6:54

It's always just like so interesting to be in a group that's so diverse, but we all just have that like common thread of loving podcasting. Or you know it being your career, or you know you you hope to someday make it your career, and it's just so wonderful getting to connect with everyone. And, um, something that, uh, I actually talked with some podcasters about is just like how kind everyone is, like even the industry leaders. You know, it's just so funny. I had so many people coming up and they would just be like I couldn't get the other podcast hosts to like talk badly about you guys and they said you're great. And you're saying they're great and like everyone's just kumbaya and I'm like yeah.

Alban: 7:33

Why are they going around to different competitors Like, hey, say something bad about your competitors.

Jordan: 7:37

I think that well, I think you know we get so many people are just like you know. Why should I pick you over them? Or what's wrong with your other competitors? And everyone's just like well.

Kevin: 7:46

Yeah, a lot of conversations start like that.

Jordan: 7:48

Yeah.

Kevin: 7:51

A lot of conversations I had. They'll walk up to our booth and they'll say something like so I host with XYZ. Tell me why Buzzsprout is better? And I think the most direct way to answer that question is to say, oh well, with XYZ they do something like this. And then we do something like that, like to counter, you know, like kind of point counterpoint, and when you do that it just doesn't feel good because we are friends with all of our competitors, like we know people at every other podcast hosting company. We know they care about their customers, we know they're building the best software they can, and so at least in the podcast hosting space, it's gotten a little bit awkward when people ask those questions they don't know.

Kevin: 8:24

It's awkward because they think, oh well, you compete with them. You should have no problem telling me why you're better than them, meaning like, tell me why they're bad and why you're good. That's the normal sales pitch. But there are a lot of really good solutions in the podcast hosting space and we're friendly with everybody and we all end up after the conference closes down every evening we end up hanging out with them and just sharing time. It's a very pleasant community and so what I usually do is I say, like, well, they are great, you've got a good solution. Let me show you a few things that are unique or what might be different than us, but I don't want to steal your way, like, if your solution is working good for you, then that's totally fine.

Jordan: 8:56

Yeah.

Kevin: 8:57

But there are some really fun and unique things about Buzzsprout and so I want to focus on the positive stuff and I think people have similar experiences when they go to other hosts and I think that's just on one hand, like surprising for them, but then also like probably refreshing for them, like this is a really cool space. I just assume it's different than most other tech spaces. Like if you went to a different tech conference where there's a bunch of email service providers around, maybe it's very different.

Alban: 9:29

There's a talk that we all watched a long time ago, a software talk, where somebody's going through and he's talking about you know, in every law firm and in all these different businesses there's still a fax machine, even years and years after fax are no longer used. And it's often the same fax machine that's been there forever. And he's talking about, like, once you build a habit of using a product over and over, you really don't want it to change sometimes. And every once in a while you'll notice, oh, there's a feature we don't have. I want to add that feature, but you don't really want that product to change a ton. And so one of the quotes that came out of it was like stop changing the buttons on people's fax machines, don't move things around unnecessarily, because your users, your customers, are getting used to using it in a specific way. And when people come up and they say, why should I move to Buzzsprout, what you're saying is there's a pretty high switching cost. The fax machine used to look one way and now you're totally replacing it with a new fax machine that you're going to have to learn. And so it's not just oh, do I think that Buzzsprout is better than competitor. It's Buzzsprout has to be so much better that it's worth paying that switching cost, that you're willing to learn something new, and so I always change those conversations from.

Alban: 10:34

If you're already started, tell me what's not working. What feature were you looking for? We might be the ones that have it, but we might not be. There might be a totally different competitor that might be better for you and we'd gladly point you in their direction so that you could go work with them. But I think it always has to come from like what's the pain point that you're experiencing in podcasting? Do we think that we're going to do a better job solving it? And if so, then let's talk about it. But if not, it always feels a little silly because they know and I know the real reason I want you to move is because I want you on our platform. They see that bias and so I don't know. It can make those conversations a little bit strange.

Kevin: 11:14

Yeah. So let me ask you guys this question. I was left with the impression after attending podcast movement this year we had somewhere around 150, 200 people come up to our booth that it felt like those were the rough numbers anyway. That were Buzzsprout customers and we ended up hanging out with those people a lot, whether it be on the trade show floor just bumping into them around the convention center or like at the Buzzsprout party or a dinner. We'd bump into people and it was a really fun crowd. We had a great time hanging out with those people. Outside of that, it felt like the crowd at Podcast Movement this year.

Kevin: 11:46

I don't know if it's a trend, but it felt like more advertising focused more enterprise-y, focused, more AI people like building AI solutions and pitching their wares and that type of stuff. And I felt like that is a pretty sharp contrast to what I've experienced in the past at Podcast Movement and it felt a lot more in alignment with what we see at PodFest in Orlando. And so I was thinking about it and I'm thinking like maybe Podcast Movement is intentionally moving in this direction where it's like a more professional, more business-y focused event. I don't know if they're doing that or not, but it just kind of felt like that and PodFest seems to be very much pushing the other direction.

Kevin: 12:22

Yeah, I think they're doing everything they can to get conference tickets down. It's not a super fancy resorty hotel that they host the conference in. It seems very affordable. It's in Orlando every year, which is really convenient for anybody flying from anywhere to get into Orlando International Airport. It's a super accessible airport and I'm feeling like that is the conference that I think more Buzzsprout podcasters. If you can only choose one, it feels like maybe Podfest might be a better choice. It's just a little bit more relaxed, a little bit more beginner friendly, a little bit more independent podcaster friendly and I think it's just more affordable both on air travel and accommodations, and it's just like a larger crowd of independent podcasters. So it just seems a little bit more fun in that sense, absolutely.

Jordan: 13:08

I think that it's interesting because that used to be the case for podcast movement.

Jordan: 13:12

Evolutions, like evolutions was supposed to be, you know, the more professional industry leader kind of conference, and now it feels like they're having two versions of that a year. I know that podcast movement wasn't as highly attended as it was last year and it definitely felt like it was more saturated with advertisers, ai companies, industry leaders than it was new podcasters. I barely met any podcasters that were in the beginning stages and like trying to figure out what podcast hosts they were going with, like still sort of in that limbo of like discovery about, like, how to start a podcast. There just really wasn't any of that, and I think that you're right. You know, the cost is just a little prohibitive for people who are like hobbyist podcasters, are thinking about starting a podcast because it is in a very expensive city, the flights are super difficult to get, it's crazy expensive to get a hotel there, and so, yeah, I agree with you on that one for sure. I think that that may have been why we saw a lot less of these independent podcasters at the space this year.

Alban: 14:21

Yeah. Yeah, I think I have a different impression on it. It's funny because when I went to evolutions this year, I felt like it was way more indie people than I had ever experienced evolutions. I had quite a bit more conversations there with people who were saying oh, I'm just starting out, I'm trying to figure out what my tech stack is going to look like, what mic should I use? And I was having way more of those conversations.

Alban: 14:42

I think a few things are happening. One whenever I see really big booths and I see really big presentations and giant parties and all sorts of things, I think, man, there's a lot of profit margin in that product. And so you look around the ads companies because they're selling millions and millions of dollars of ads and, on average, are keeping like 20 to 30% of that. I think that there's just a lot of money there and they really need to show up and look really impressive for the big podcasters. So for any of the big podcasters or their agents, that might be a podcast movement. The largest ad companies are like we're going to show up and spend a ton to impress those few people to land their clients. I think that's just a totally different way than we approach podcast movement because our money is going into working on the product or going to salaries or something else, but we're not going to spend 50 grand on a booth.

Alban: 15:39

And I do wonder do we end up having fewer conversations with brand new podcasters? Not because they're not there, but are we maybe not having those because we brought a lot of people this time? I talked to a lot of people who were like you brought me and my co-host Thank you so much. We can't wait to see you at this party. We can't wait to do this event with you, and so I wonder if maybe more of those brand new podcasters. I just don't have as many conversations with them because I'm talking to so many friends and people who are already on Buzzsprout.

Jordan: 16:09

I feel like I talked to like half the people at the conference is how I felt. I just didn't see them. So I don't know, I'm not really sure about that. But the booth thing so one of the funniest things was our placement of our booth, because, buzzsprout, we do not have a big flashy booth with like a ton of I don't know led screens I like our booth.

Alban: 16:35

We've got a nice 10 by 10 backlit dark green pop of color it look.

Jordan: 16:41

I'm happy we have upgraded in recent years to like backlit spandexy I don't know what it's called like polyester background thing. But this year was so funny because I walked in I found our booth and we were behind Lipson and Lipson had this beautiful, huge I don't even know, like 40 by 40 LED screen. Led screen the full, like tech roller case things. I mean it looked like they were packing up for Taylor Swift concert when they were like unloading that thing. There were so many cases and so much stuff that they were unloading.

Alban: 17:14

We were tucked away behind the lips and ads Jumbotron.

Jordan: 17:18

And it was so funny you could not even see us from the front door. So that was great. But what's really cool is that we did not have a huge booth. But we did make a pretty big splash because some podcasters came up to us one morning and they said that at the keynote they were sort of doing like a superlatives or sort of thing, where they're asking, like the audience, about, you know, podcast movement and they asked who had the best swag at podcast movement and Buzzsprout beat out all the other people for best swag at podcast movement, we won best swag.

Jordan: 17:51

Yeah, we didn't get an award for it, but we got street cred.

Alban: 17:55

There we go. We had a lot of new stuff, so we had lots of shirts, we had lots of new stickers, we had door hangers, we had the achievement pins. I feel like the achievement pins were a huge hit.

Jordan: 18:05

Yeah, those were great.

Alban: 18:07

I loved handing them out. I met quite a few people who'd podcasted for 10 years or more.

Jordan: 18:12

Yeah.

Alban: 18:13

I loved like having conversations and handing them that pin and everyone was just so excited because 10 years in podcasting is like 40 years anywhere else.

Jordan: 18:21

The big deal.

Alban: 18:22

Yeah, it's huge.

Jordan: 18:23

Yeah, we were passing those out like crazy and that was a lot of fun. Also, another big hit that we have to do next time is the tattoos.

Kevin: 18:32

I was surprised at how eager people were, I know, to put a tattoo on. That's going to, you know. I guess you could wash it off whenever you want, if you want to scrub and scrub and scrub, but if you don't, I felt like it's going to be on your arm for a few days. Are you sure you want it? And everyone was like yes.

Jordan: 18:45

Yeah, I had the honor of tattooing Dave Jackson, which was a lot of fun.

Alban: 18:52

The tattoos looked real enough that I was having a conversation with someone who is on the business side of the podcasting world and he was making the point. He was like, oh, I'm kind of like a traditional CEO. He's been involved in lots of like public companies and he's, like you know, I'm not like as hip as you guys, I don't have tattoos and he like gestured towards me and I don't have any tattoos and I looked and he was gesturing towards my arm with the bus route tattoo.

Jordan: 19:20

Can you imagine?

Alban: 19:21

I'm in this like reasonably serious conversation and I'm like, oh yeah, that's a temporary tattoo.

Jordan: 19:28

That's not real.

Alban: 19:30

I feel like one of the kids who puts the quarter in. He gets like the temporary tattoo in the little bottle thing and put that on.

Jordan: 19:36

Or the like, little, like candy cigarettes, and you think you're so cool, yeah, yeah. So at the party, kevin was going around with a cup of water and some napkins just tattooing anyone who would let him. And, yeah, the buzzsprout party. It was awesome. I think that might've been our best one we've ever thrown.

Kevin: 19:55

The party was was great. I think it was the largest party and probably the most fun party that we've had since the bowling party, the pre-pandemic bowling party, which was probably a little bit bigger, I think there was. Did we ever count Alvin? It was like 200, 250. Why is that number sticking in my head? I?

Alban: 20:09

feel like 250 sounds right. That was really big. We had such a big venue and tons of people came and got bowling alleys and we'd rented the whole place out. Yeah, I think since then it was probably the largest probably had 150 people. We had a good spot a few blocks away. We had tons of food. One of the lessons learned has been people are more excited about your conference party if you have lots of food rather than lots of alcohol. I don't know if that's a sign of people growing up or that they plan to drink later in the night somewhere else, but everybody comes and we have this huge buffet and then people just line all up and start grabbing big plates of food. And then when I got the alcohol bill, I was like man, this is like surprisingly low. Yeah, I expected. So people on average were having like two plates of food and one drink.

Jordan: 20:56

Yeah, I was surprised because in the announcement we said that there would be I think it was light appetizers and drinks. It was light appetizers and drinks. And then we show up and there's like a literal buffet of like chicken tenders and wings and sliders and like just anything you want Pancakes.

Kevin: 21:13

Where did the pancakes come from?

Jordan: 21:14

Oh, cornbread pancakes.

Alban: 21:16

Cornbread pancakes.

Jordan: 21:17

Yeah.

Alban: 21:17

It was their take on chicken and waffles.

Jordan: 21:20

Oh yeah, so cool Like fried chicken with cornbread pancakes.

Alban: 21:24

Yeah, I thought were pretty good yeah.

Kevin: 21:26

People were loving them.

Alban: 21:27

Also friend of the show and you know one of our super fans, Caitlin, sent down two pickleball paddles to Kevin and I. Wow, and one way that this is much better than the one I play with is that doesn't have a big crack down the side of it.

Kevin: 21:42

No one's punted this one into the ground. Alvin has a temper sometimes when we play pickleball, and so his paddle meets the concrete on a regular basis, and last night we played and he pushed it over the edge. He threw that paddle into the ground, so hard Crunch Crunched it. So these new paddles arrived at the perfect time.

Alban: 22:00

I don't have much of a temper for other people. I definitely have a temper with myself and I'm like I can make that shot and that was like laziness or something. I'm like I'll get really frustrated. So yeah, my paddle has a big crack down the side, 100% self-inflicted.

Jordan: 22:16

I overheard her talk to you guys about how she works with like a pickleball pedal company and she has like a lot of sports podcasts. One of them is our kids play hockey, things like that and she said that she would get those paddles to you guys and she did so fast.

Kevin: 22:33

Yep, and they evidently can be customized. So, if you want a pickleball paddle with your own podcast logo on it or company brand or just your family crest whatever you want, Family crest, you can yeah, you can order them.

Alban: 22:51

Maybe we can find the link and drop in the show notes. But yeah, the paddles look really great. Yeah, we'll have to play with these on Monday. Um, but it's. I mean, this is a real carbon fiber paddle, kevin. They look legit. How's the texture? Texture's good. It's actually very similar to mine.

Jordan: 23:04

Are those a little bit longer than the ones that we got at the Buzzsprout meetup?

Kevin: 23:08

There are different shapes to pickleball paddles so the regulation has to do with, like, the overall circumference of the paddle including the handle, so the full area around including the handle. So if you have a shorter handle you can have a bigger face Really.

Alban: 23:20

Or if you want a longer handle, you have to have If you went to the party or you want to see pictures of it. I uploaded a full album of photos to the Facebook group. We can link to it down in the show notes so that people can go through and tag themselves or grab pictures of themselves, if you'd like. Before we end this bit, can we talk a little bit about some of our takeaways from podcast movement, because at least one of my takeaways I do not like.

Jordan: 23:49

Okay.

Alban: 23:49

And maybe I've got two that I don't like. This is going to be a grumpy segment, but the two things I kept hearing about were AI and it felt very similar to just there's a lot of like the same thing as co-host AI, kind of the same product quite a few times, which I like. That product, I'm glad that we have it, but it feels like there's a lot of energy on this one area that seems to not have changed a whole lot in the last year. And then there's a lot of other energy on video.

Jordan: 24:17

Yeah.

Alban: 24:18

And you know we don't have to go back into this. We could link to any number of episodes if people want to go hear our video takes, but there's so much energy and I feel like anxiety about video. I mean, we've talked about the downside of video. Isn't that it's bad, because video is really cool. Video is a great additional thing to do. But it is an additional thing to do and it's more work and it's causes anxiety for people and there's so many people who said, yeah, I just am realizing I have to do so much more and it's overwhelming because I'm hearing in every talk. I have to do video.

Jordan: 24:53

Honestly, I was really upset and a little bit miffed about how many of these talks were really pushing video. I would have podcasters come up to me like you said, albin, there's a lot of anxiety around this and they would come up to the booth and be like I'm hearing that I have to do this and this and this, and I can see them visually stressing and I would have to calm them down and then, like, really talk through, like okay, let's think about this. What is your podcast about? Do you have like visual cues? Could you incorporate something visually into your podcast? And then they'd find out that, like, maybe it wasn't the perfect thing for their podcast anyway and so maybe they shouldn't have to do it.

Jordan: 25:35

I would have to show them, like retention rates on my YouTube videos. I would log into my own personal podcast and show them retention rates to show how low it is compared to, like, apple podcasts and Spotify and just be like look, not all of this is true. You know, I know a lot of people are pushing it, a lot of the video companies are pushing it, and it really is just causing a lot of stress for podcasters that now they have to do this extra thing. And I talked to one woman who she does video production as a living and it stressed her out so badly that she would have to do it for her podcast too. Like it was just and that's what she does, her podcast too.

Kevin: 26:11

Like it was just, and that's what she does. It's just crazy. It does seem like things are shifting a little bit in how podcast movement is run. They seem to be more open to the idea that if companies sponsor a stage or a track or specific companies might buy a big sponsorship package which then puts podcast movement in a position where they feel like they have to give them a big stage or multiple stages to present certain content, and the editorial control that comes along with that is increasing at podcast movement.

Jordan: 26:42

Yeah.

Kevin: 26:43

It's becoming a differentiator for me in my mind between podcast movement and podfest. I also saw some of this the year that we went to the pod show in London and the more that that happens, the more I start to feel like the people who are running these conferences are not necessarily looking out in the best interest for the industry or for indie podcasters. They are just doing the business side of podcast conferences, which is show up and generate as much money as you can in that event, and that doesn't feel great. The thing about PodFest is it still feels very much like a conference for independent podcasters and a conference that cares about the success of independent podcasters and the success and the health of the overall podcast ecosystem. So an example of this is like I heard from a couple of people who were speaking on sponsored stages, and this year the people who were sponsoring the stage got to review some of the decks, maybe at their request. Maybe not everybody was doing this, but a few were. We're reviewing the decks of the speakers before they got up there and then offering strong suggestions about well, we'd rather you not talk about that. Maybe you could say it this way, or maybe did you know that we have something, a solution, that provides a similar type output. Maybe you'd rather talk about our solution than that one.

Kevin: 27:54

If you're going to use an example of one of these, yes, sometimes that can be totally fine because the examples just can be interchanged and so I get it, but it does feel like it's being editorialized a little bit and the companies that come in with money and an agenda they're getting their message through louder, and right now there's a lot of people in the podcasting space who are interested in jumping on the video bandwagon. We know who the companies are, so I don't have to call them out, but that's happening, and I think it's happening at the detriment of independent podcasters who are showing up to learn and then they're just hearing these agenda items being pushed. Whether you need to be, you know the way to be a successful podcaster is you have to take advantage of all these AI tools and technologies and you have to do all this, you know, to make sure that your show pops up to the top of the search results on Apple podcasts and you have to do a video and post a hundred shorts a day.

Kevin: 28:46

You don't know how to. Yeah, you don't know how to do video, no problem, because we offer coaching services, or we sell a video studio in a box, or we sell this light package, or we sell this, like Jordan was saying the software that will take your YouTube clips and make them. You know, 300 social clips and then you can push them to all the social things. And so it's not fair to the podcasters because they don't know that they're just being fed marketing messages wrapped up in educational talk. But that is happening and it's kind of a bummer, especially as somebody who's been around these conferences from long ago where they started off with the purest of intentions. And you know, buying a sponsorship package doesn't guarantee you a speaking slot and if you are speaking, you have to provide some value beyond just saying what your product does or why you're unique in the space. It's not an opportunity to get up and market your product for 30 minutes. You have to provide something valuable beyond that.

Alban: 29:34

I feel like we've gone through so many of these phases that some of them don't really have the. They don't really land for me as much anymore. Like there was a period where everyone was like, if you want to have a successful podcast, you've got to be on Clubhouse.

Jordan: 29:46

Yeah.

Alban: 29:46

And then there were people who were like If you want to run a podcast, you've got to be trying to get into a network so that you can get ads. And there was a period where it was all about LinkedIn. It was like maybe this is like a year or two ago where everyone was like if you're not on LinkedIn, like you're totally missing the boat for podcasts. And there was a period with courses where everyone was like if you want to monetize, by far the best way to monetize a podcast is to build up an audience and then sell a course. And so Teachable and Kajabi were there and helping people set up courses.

Alban: 30:19

And now we're in the season of video and I never really thought about this pipeline, kevin. But if you look at it from, there's expensive products. Expensive products lead to profit, margin and money and that means, hey, we can sponsor a stage. If that does allow them some influence over what's spoken on the stage, it becomes a little bit of a marketing message all the way down from there's a good product and that good product allows them to kind of shape the narrative to seem like oh, allows them to kind of shape the narrative to seem like, oh, you've got to be doing whichever of these things is hot in the moment. But we know, I mean that was my 10th podcast movement in 10 years. I think I figured out with my wife I've probably spent something like 90 days at podcast conferences in the last 10 years.

Alban: 31:09

A lot of conferences and there's a handful of companies that have been every single one, and I think that might be why we're all pretty friendly with our competitors. But then there ends up being this also, and companies, and they show up for a few years and they make a really big splash. What was the one? Fireside? Do you remember Fireside chat?

Jordan: 31:31

Yes, the Mark Cuban keynote.

Alban: 31:34

Mark Cuban did keynotes at podcast movement two years in a row where he was like, basically, podcasting is dead, the future is social audio. In my app and I remember somebody who turned out to be an ambassador for Fireside coming up and being like this is the future man, it's going to demolish Like I don't know why companies like Buzzsprout are going to be able to succeed, and I was trying to understand. I was like I don't see what the attraction is to social audio. I don't think it's going to be around. And lo and behold, a few years later, it's not still around. And it's not that these are bad ideas, but it's like there is something really special about when it's built in a open and sustainable way.

Alban: 32:13

Podcasting what does Adam Curry call it, the honey badger of media will not die. It just keeps fighting and it keeps going because it's free and it's open, and I'm sure there'll be many, many revolutions of like oh, we're going to do video podcasts and there's going to be new audio apps and Spotify is going to do something and YouTube will counter it and Apple make an announcement, but at the end of the day, we're all there because for the last 23 years, podcasting has been this audio focused platform and I'm confident that piece will be here in 10 years. I imagine YouTube will also be here in 10 years and there'll still be video podcasts. But I want to set people up with which piece can you stick around for for 10 years? And you know, let's invest in that piece and get moving. The fads are going to come and go, but at least the audio side and storytelling side and content side all those are still going to be here, you know, in 2034 as well.

Jordan: 33:19

All right. So some other big news from last week. Apple Podcasts has launched a web version. We touched on this on our Snapcast last week, but they announced that their podcast app is now available in web browsers. They say that the Apple Podcasts on the web allows listeners to enjoy the full Apple Podcasts experience on any web browser, on any device, and this includes Android phones. So did you guys get a chance to look at it?

Kevin: 33:45

I did. I did a little bit. I'm still looking at it on an iPhone. I have an Android device here, but I don't use it enough to keep it charged, so I have it plugged in charging right now. So as soon as it's done charging I'm going to drop it on my Android device and see how it feels. But I did hear that you can't install it like as a PWA yet on Android. To make that happen really nicely, they need to do a manifest update and we heard at Podcast Movement that that will happen. But it might not be super fast just because of the checks and balances in place at Apple. Of course everything has to go through lots of approval before it goes out, so that might still be a few weeks out. But James at PodNews did write an article about how to get around that and install it as a PWA even before that update hits. So I'm going to check out that article this afternoon.

Alban: 34:28

The layout reminds me a lot of iTunes. You know it's kind of this left navigation, you can play, you sign in. The nice thing is, if you're somebody who listens on the web, maybe you have a Windows machine that you use at work and you like to play podcasts in the background that's going to be really nice for you If you're over on Android.

Alban: 34:48

It does work on Android and it supports all of the Apple podcast subscriptions, so you're able to subscribe to these shows now and listen to their premium content and have everything synced up really nicely. I looked at just the search results for Buzzcast, Our own website is number one, but number two is Apple podcasts these landing pages that they have and I think this is true for most podcasts. You have your own website, maybe Spotify's up there, but often Apple Podcasts is the top other result number two. And now if you click it and you go to the Apple Podcast page, well, you can listen to the full episode there. You can sign in so that you can follow it. You can sign in so your spot is saved so that when you open it up on your phone, it's all synced up nicely. I think this is going to be a really good entry point for a lot of people to learn about podcasts. We saw for a long time Google was doing this, where they had podcasts, like in the search engine results.

Jordan: 35:54

Yes.

Alban: 35:54

And they ended up pulling it out right as they were shutting down Google podcasts or a little bit before that, and now we've got it back. We've got a kind of a full featured podcasting app built into a web browser that is already ranking like pretty top two spots for almost every show. So I want to see will we see an uptick in Apple podcast numbers?

Jordan: 36:19

And I know that a lot of hosts are doing things a little bit differently. But with the stats, is Apple podcasts on web going to show up as like a web browser, or is it going to show up as Apple podcasts?

Kevin: 36:31

Yeah, that's a really good question and there is a little bit of debate in the industry about what's the best way to do it. But that was just week one. Now we are in week two and everyone seems to agree that it should show up as Apple podcasts and so that is the way that Buzzsprout has handled it since day one.

Kevin: 36:48

Just because of the way that we have our tech stack set up, that kind of worked out of the box for us, and that was probably about half. The podcast hosts were doing it that way and the other half were attributing it as a web browser. And now the whole industry seems to have agreed upon no, that's Apple podcasts in a web browser, so it should be Apple podcasts, and so everyone's updating code and it'll be standardized in that direction.

Alban: 37:16

I mean it makes sense, especially if people are signed in. You're signed in, You're listening on this player. You're going to keep coming back to that player. It feels like it's Apple podcast.

Kevin: 37:20

That's where I'd want to see it attributed yeah, want to learn a little inside information about Apple podcasts on the web. Heard this at podcast movement that the web version will not play explicit episodes unless you were signed in.

Jordan: 37:32

Oh, that's neat.

Kevin: 37:34

That was an interesting tidbit. That's great. I think the idea has something to do with Apple. You know, they don't know the age of the person who's listening until they're signed in, yeah, and so they're just not playing explicit podcasts. So I don't know if it hides them altogether or if you just try to play them. It just says you can't do this until you sign in. I haven't tested it, but that's interesting and very Apple-y right Like very.

Kevin: 37:53

Apple always kind of wanting to protect youth and stuff, and they do a good job with that.

Alban: 37:58

Yeah, we got some fan mail from Ira from Wedding Pro CEO wrote in and said I noticed the app podcastapplecom on Mac does not include clickable links, and I went and checked this out for For Buzzcast. It strips all the links out and it just uses it as text. So if I was on the SEO team at Apple, this is what I would have done as well. One of the downsides of having links anywhere on the web is you attract all the scammiest SEO people and they go. Oh cool a way for me to get a good link from podcastapplecom. Oh cool A way for me to get a good link from podcastapplecom high domain authority. This link is really good. It's to make a really weird podcast for my gambling website and put a bunch of links to my gambling site and then when Apple shows that podcast now it makes my gambling website look legit.

Jordan: 38:49

Oh, that's interesting.

Alban: 38:50

And you might think that this is a like a rational fear, but we see it constantly. Even for pages that we would never show the link, there's still all sorts of kind of shady websites that try to get links, so it's a bummer for legit podcasts like Buzzcast. We would like to have that link to text the show and support the show and contact Buzzcast and all the different links that we have in there. I would like to have that link to text the show and support the show and contact Buzzcast and all the different links that we have in there. I would like this to be there, but I totally understand when this is on a webpage and Google will scrape this as oh, you're recommending these links, apple is recommending these links. Apple's like. We're not going to be a part of that because there's going to be way too many scam links going out to all sorts of weird websites, so it's a bummer. Seos have killed another part of the web.

Jordan: 39:39

That's why we can't have nice things.

Alban: 39:41

That's why we can't have nice things.

Jordan: 39:44

So I actually got to dig around a little bit more this week on Apple Podcasts on the web and I did a little digging, both logged in and not logged in, to see if things were a little bit different. So some other things I found with the website that's a little bit different than the app my private podcasts I'm subscribed to from, you know, buzzsprout subscriptions or Patreon. They do not show on the website but I can play content that I have bought with Apple subscriptions. So I guess that makes sense, you know. But yeah, I was really surprised I couldn't have my private RSS feeds.

Kevin: 40:19

Oh yeah, I'm noticing this.

Jordan: 40:21

Yeah.

Kevin: 40:22

Dang it, you're right. There are some shows that I subscribe to and have private feeds for, and they don't show up under my shows.

Jordan: 40:28

Yeah, and I don't know why that would be.

Kevin: 40:32

Well, maybe that's a question that we shoot over to the Apple team and see what they say. Is that just a? It might be coming someday? They didn't have time to get it in before the release, or is there a reason why it's not working and it will never work? I don't know.

Jordan: 40:43

Yeah, I think that there's some other things that are maybe just not with the initial release but might come out later. I hope they come out later, and that includes that there are no chapter markers and also no transcripts. I was really surprised by that, actually because Apple pushed out their beautiful transcripts on the app just last year, and so I thought that it would make it in there, but it did not. Another thing that I noticed is that you can read ratings and reviews, but you can't leave any, and this is something that I thought might just be because you're not, like, signed in to the Apple podcast account, but it's actually, even if I'm signed in, I can't leave ratings and reviews for podcasts, and I was surprised to see that as well.

Alban: 41:24

A lot of these things are sounding to me like we might get more of them in the future. But there's also this whole category that's just kind of avoiding the scammy stuff of the web.

Jordan: 41:35

And when things are in browsers.

Alban: 41:36

well, now you're going to have people who automate scripts to leave tons of reviews. I mean, this is definitely an issue. You see it with podcasts. Every once in a while we'll go from a pretty nice rating and review all the way down to really really low numbers. Or some random podcast you've never heard of will all of a sudden shoot up the charts and there's people who are trying to automate all of this stuff and leave tons of reviews and subscribe and unsubscribe and do all sorts of stuff. So I could see the Apple team's like let's not even deal with ratings and reviews for now, because that's going to end up attracting a bunch of this kind of scammy stuff.

Kevin: 42:11

Yeah, let me talk for a second about chapter markers, because this is a possibly exciting opportunity for Apple to maybe adopt another thing from the podcast namespace. Okay, so there's three different versions of technology that you can use to get chapters into podcast episodes, and the one that Apple has been using, I think, has been totally fine for them until now. So now it becomes difficult for them to extract chapters from a podcast audio file when that audio file isn't running through their app. So there are ways to do it, but it's not. They're all kind of hacky and I could see the Apple team, when they're building the web version of this, like running into that and being like this feels hacky. We'd rather just leave them out than not do it.

Kevin: 42:54

But what you know it is not hacky and is really super easy is the podcast namespace version of those chapters and also the pod love simple chapters. Both of those would be a lot easier for them to display in a web browser, and so I would prefer that they go the podcast namespace route and adopt that. But either way, it would be them moving out of sort of the very old way of doing chapters into a newer way, whether it be Podlove or namespace. Again, please be namespace, if anyone from Apple is listening. But the nice thing is that that would be a step forward and again, if they do use the namespace version, it would be another like hat tip towards some of the standardization that we're trying to bring into podcasting RSS.

Jordan: 43:36

Yeah, all right. So we talked about the things that the web version does not have, but I was also able to find some things that you can now do with the web version. One of those is just simply copying and sharing the links to the featured lists and top charts and stuff like that. That's not something that you can do in the Apple Podcasts app. You aren't able to link to, like featured lists, so if your podcast is featured, you can now drop a link to that and show it off on social media, share it, things like that. Another thing that you can do now is easily get embed codes for podcasts. So this is something that I could not find on my Apple podcast app for other podcasts.

Jordan: 44:22

It's really easy on the web version.

Jordan: 44:24

You click share and then, when you go to share, you get two options you can copy the embed code or copy the link, and you can do this on an episode level or on a podcast level.

Jordan: 44:34

These embed codes are kind of neat because they're sort of I don't know what the word is like dynamic, where you know when you do the embed code, you can do like different sizes, so you can do a smaller size for the podcast where it has like your cover art and you can click to play the latest episode in the embed player and then there's also an option to go back to the Apple Podcasts website to see more episodes.

Jordan: 44:59

You can also do a little bit of an extended version of it where it actually lists the most recent five or six episodes of your podcast. You can actually play it right there in the embed player and then just on the episode level where you can just have an episode on your website where you can play or see more. And I don't know, I see I see this working somewhat similar to like a pod role on your website or something like that. You know where you can link to other podcasts that you really like, um, and hopefully that this will help with podcast discoverability, especially in like feature websites, you know, or recommendation websites, things like that.

Kevin: 45:37

Yeah, I agree, jordan. I had a question for you to get the different types of players, whether it's just like the podcast embed, where it just shows the cover art and then a link to Apple podcasts, versus the playlist player where it's actually showing five or six episodes. How did you get those two different things?

Jordan: 45:54

Okay, so I'm not sure about other sites, but I personally use Squarespace and they just have this really easy block system where you just add a block and I was able to drop the embed code into a block and then I could click and drag the embed player and it just would dynamically change.

Kevin: 46:16

Right, okay, so it depends on the size of the container that you drop it in.

Jordan: 46:20

Yes.

Kevin: 46:20

How it will render. Okay, so if you have a bigger space, it's going to give you more like a multi-episode player is what we call it in Buzzsprout, where it will show some episodes you can click through and play them. If not, if it gets too small, it's just going to show basically the cover art with a link to pop open a new browser to play it. Yeah, right, and is the single episode player kind of work? The same way, if it's real small it's just a play button, but if it gets bigger does it show something else?

Jordan: 46:47

The single episode does not work that way, which does not work that way, which I thought was interesting. It just kind of stays like a small bar.

Kevin: 46:53

Okay, so it's always a bar yeah.

Jordan: 46:55

It doesn't show like the episode description or anything like that, which would have been cool, but yeah.

Kevin: 47:00

Yeah, I always wonder how many people use these things because it is you know you are getting some Apple design.

Kevin: 47:06

They do look beautiful and they would probably fit really well in most websites that you would drop them in. They'd look great. But of course, since it's the Apple player, it's prioritizing the Apple playback experience, so it really only has one button it has, which is you know, you can play this episode, but then if you want to like follow the podcast, the only option they give you is to do that through Apple podcasts. So it's never been a really good solution, I think, for podcasters generally, because the thing, the powerful thing about podcasting is that wherever you listen to your podcasts, our podcasts work there, and so if you're going to put on your website, you probably want links to, at a minimum, apple and Spotify, but maybe also Overcast and Pocket Cast and YouTube and everything else All the other places you have your podcasts as well. Oh yeah, but maybe Apple is thinking let's get people in bed code, because people might jump on this more now that there is a web version of Apple Podcasts.

Kevin: 47:54

So even if you don't use Apple Podcasts as your primary player, this link is still going to work for you now, and maybe you will become an Apple Podcast user.

Alban: 48:02

So, yeah, I think that's a great argument and I've been, frankly, very surprised at how many people use the Spotify version of this. Yeah, we saw people who had really good players. I mean, I could see where their shows were hosted. I'm like I know you, that host has a good player. We had a handful that were buzzword ones that I was like, oh, I think we have a really good player and they would still use Spotify. And I think it was just because, kind of that name brand is right there and the idea that it says, hey, you want to listen to more, just click and it opens up Spotify, which a lot of people have on their phone or on their computer. Yeah, and there's a web player for Spotify too.

Jordan: 48:39

Yeah.

Alban: 48:39

And so maybe, now that there's the web player, you know with confidence whoever it is, they click see more episodes. They're going to see more episodes. It's not going to say, oh, you don't have this app installed, so they'll be able to to open it up. I think that the platform specific embed players, I think, are going to be more, a little more popular, and they just look clean. You know, one thing you're going to get with Spotify or Apple is they have a good design team and so it's just going to look really clean, minimalistic, and if it matches, if the branding of your website doesn't really look great with the you know the embed player you've getting from your host, maybe you'll be tempted towards these.

Alban: 49:16

My hope is that everybody on Buzzsprout enjoys the player that we have. I hope the one we've made is gonna be best for everybody because it's going to link out to whatever player your listeners like to use. So, whether that be Apple, spotify, youtube, amazon or any of the amazing third-party apps, I'd hope you'll have the option to get to the podcast right away.

Jordan: 49:37

Yeah, I think the where Apple podcasts pulls forward in this is the ability to copy embed code for any podcast, not just your own, you know, cause I don't think you can do that with Spotify, and so I mean, really I don't know. I just I love the shareability of this. I love that I can write a blog or, you know, do something like that and, you know, drop a podcast episode that I think is pertinent to the discussion directly into the website for any podcast.

Kevin: 50:10

But I think Apple podcast is missing now, and I know we're talking about the web version and not the app but on the app side, I think they've they've fallen behind a little bit.

Kevin: 50:17

So for the past three or four years, spotify has done a really good job of integrating with the share sheets that are built into native applications. So, whether you're on iOS or whether you're on Android, if you're listening to a podcast or if you're at the podcast level, or even maybe like a playlist level and stuff you can share, that the native share sheets come up and then you can like, say like, share to Instagram and the app will create a preview for that podcast and it. Some of them do more than others. Like if you just published a Pinterest or something, it might just publish a link, but if you published Instagram, for example, it can actually be playable through Instagram and it'll have like a video in the background.

Kevin: 50:54

Yeah, Spotify has done a really good job of making it easy to share stuff from their app into the social networks, and Apple certainly has that available to them, but they've never jumped on it, and so maybe what we're seeing is like this is their first step into doing that, like making embed code easily available to everybody through Apple Podcasts for the web. Maybe they'll add that to their apps as well, because I think that's really where you're going to get a higher level of engagement. I see a lot more people listening to a podcast through Apple podcast app and then wanting to share that to their Instagram or their TikTok or something like that. Then I do probably grabbing a random episode and putting it on my website, but I think they're moving in the right direction. I do. I do want to see them catch up to Spotify in that regard.

Jordan: 51:33

Yeah, I actually got a message from Patreon last time I logged in that soon Apple will start charging fees for new paid memberships in the iOS app, and what Patreon is saying is that Apple is requiring Patreon to switch to their iOS in-app purchase system starting this November. So the way that this is going to affect creators is that Apple is going to apply their 30% App Store fee to all new memberships purchased in the Patreon iOS app. And so Patreon is saying, all right, there's two different ways that we can go about this. All right, there's two different ways that we can go about this. And they actually gave me an option when I'm choosing my iOS pricing for my Patreon. They have like a recommended option that says maintain earnings and cover Apple's fee by increasing prices in just the iOS app.

Jordan: 52:29

And so I can yeah, I can make my fees a little bit higher to subscribe to roughly 30% higher my fees a little bit higher to subscribe to roughly 30% higher, yeah, roughly 30% higher, yeah, and so instead of like $10, it's 1450. Or I can keep prices in the iOS app the same and cover Apple's fees myself, and then I will earn less on transactions in the iOS app.

Kevin: 52:51

Right Um. The good news for Apple is like no matter which option you choose app.

Jordan: 52:56

Right.

Kevin: 52:56

The good news for Apple is like no matter which option you choose, they get the same. Yeah, yeah, it's tough. This is this has been talked about a lot by almost every industry that has application in the mobile space, and you know, I really do believe that Apple firmly believes that they have a right to this income. And then there's the developer side and the customer side. That feels like it's too much. Most people say, yeah, apple deserves something, but 30% is too much. Apple changed ways a few years ago and said, okay, well, how about 30% for the first year and then after that it'll be 15%. From what I've read, that benefit will not extend the Patreon thing, so I think it'll be 30% forever. With the way that Patreon is, there's a lot of nuance to the rules and how Apple charges, but it does feel like a lot.

Kevin: 53:40

I think Apple sees themselves as very much like a retail store, and so if you were, if you built a widget and then you wanted to go put it into Best Buy or I don't know, jcpenney or whatever other retail stores, they're obviously going to take a cut for maintaining their store. I think Apple feels entitled to a similar arrangement. It's tough in the software space because we know the costs aren't as linear as they are in brick and mortar stores, and so it does feel expensive, like it doesn't really cost Apple anything more to add one more piece of software, but it does cost them something to run and maintain the store in the first place. So it's complex. That's all I'm trying to get at, and I think I've made that point clear.

Kevin: 54:19

But the problem, the biggest problem here is Apple. Sometimes, when they've received the most pushback for this stuff, is when they insert themselves into transactions that don't have the margins to cover their cut, and so this happened in the music space, it happened in the online book space, now it's happening in podcasting. I'm sure there's lots of other examples, but the margins sometimes don't exist. So if you think about a book sale, for example, when somebody writes a book, then there's a publisher for that book, and then there's the store that sells that book and all that kind of stuff, and so the margins get pretty thin. You can only split the pie so many different ways, and so then, when Apple introduces themselves into that equation as well, and then what they want 30% there might not be 30% left. It might not be profitable anymore to sell books through that way, and so, like Amazon, for example the Kindle store. On iOS you cannot buy a book. You have to go in a web browser to amazoncom, buy the Kindle version, then log back into the iOS app and it'll appear.

Jordan: 55:12

I didn't know that.

Kevin: 55:12

Yeah, and so and this has also happened in music, you know this has been big stories Like Spotify is saying it's, how can we compete with Apple music? They, they don't. They don't have to pay themselves 30%, but we have to pay 30%. And we also have to pay the music publisher and the artist and the songwriters and everybody credited in the creation of that piece. And so there's the. The money's just not there. We're going to have to raise our prices and prices and then, but when then our customers have a similar music service option in Apple music? We're going to lose all of our customers if we charge 30% more than Apple music. So, yada, yada, it goes on and on.

Kevin: 55:41

Now it's hitting the podcasting space, and so the question is well, not the podcaster space, but the creator space, and our niche of that is podcasters through Patreon. And Patreon is saying I don't know if there's enough margin here, like Patreon charges their customers a piece of the revenue, somewhere between 8% and 15%, for running it through their platform. And then the podcasters know that their audience probably has a certain threshold for what they'd be willing to support me at. It might be $5 a month, it might be $7 a month, $10 a month. It's probably depending on the quality and the value of the content that they're putting out there. And if all of a sudden that just goes up by 30%, are people willing to support me at 30% more? I don't know, does that just mean I'm going to make less, but I can't make less.

Kevin: 56:25

A lot of people who are making a living off Patreon right now they're not necessarily out there killing it. They're not making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. They just get to the point where they can do this as their full-time job barely, and then they make the jump and now, whatever, a couple of months or a year later or something, the rules of the game change outright from underneath them and they're like what am I going to do? So I've done a good job of painting the picture. I have not done a good job of coming up with any solutions. I don't think there are any good solutions. Patreon, I think, has done the best they could, which is offering creators the option of like do you just want to make less money or do you want to try to get your supporters to pay more? And those are the only two options they really have available to them, and they've now made those available to their customers, so I think Patreon is doing the best they can. Who's the bad guy here?

Alban: 57:08

When I started looking at the numbers, for it is when it kind of like pops for me. So let's say I want to support somebody and it's a $10 support and I feel like most of that money is probably making its way to Jordan, who's making this podcast that I really enjoy. If you do Patreon through the web, they're taking something like 15% let's say so, jordan's making something like $8.50.

Alban: 57:34

But now Jordan gets that option, she goes okay, I guess I want to raise my price because I want to still make about the same amount of money. Well, now the bill is going to be something like $1450. Apple is going to take $4.35 for having the app store. They didn't look at Jordan's content. They didn't approve her content. It's just like Patreon approved it. And so Apple goes okay, cool, we're going to take 30% of that. Then Patreon still takes their $1.16, $1.50, somewhere in that range, and the creator is making less than $9, $8.99. So $5.50 are kind of disappearing to the platforms, a majority of which is going to Apple, which in the group does not feel like they're adding as much. Jordan's doing the work in creating the podcast. Patreon has created a platform and they're processing the fees and they're checking credit cards. They're doing all this work and now Apple is coming in and getting 435 for it doesn't feel like a ton. This does not feel like the correct distribution of how this money should go.

Jordan: 58:47

The only pushback that there is really available is, if you're a creator, I say go for the higher fee and put that one out there in the Patreon iOS app but then tell people hey, I make more money if you do this through the web and let your customers decide if it's worth it to them of it, because this is actually forcing Patreon to change their billing methods and that's going to affect creators, because I imagine there's going to be a lot of supporters that don't like billing changes or will drop out because of it, because there's like some sort of like weird interruption. But they're saying that any creator that is currently on first of the month or per creation billing plans will have to switch over to subscription billing to continue earning in the iOS app.

Kevin: 59:41

So I think what Apple is allowing Patreon to do is, if someone has an existing subscription set up and maybe they set that up through the iOS app and it's not up for renewal, I think they're going to let it ride. I think they're going to say you. I think they're going to say you don't have to get those customers to come back and check out through in-app purchases to be able to continue that line of revenue and we don't need to increase their prices and all that stuff. But any new subscriptions going forward after this update hits have to take place through in-app purchase. So that really impacts people who are doing like on a per creation basis, because those are basically new purchases. Even though they're automated, they are new purchases each time and I think what they're saying is that's going to stop next time you do something after. The next time you create something after this update hits, it's going to say hey, there's a new post, do you want to pay for it? And if so, you have to pay for it through in-app purchasing.

Jordan: 1:00:38

So Patreon is giving patrons, the subscribers, 16 months to switch their billing type 16 months.

Jordan: 1:00:42

I know from experience getting Patreon members to do anything different is an uphill battle. I think I threatened a year and a half ago no, a year and eight months ago that I was giving them a year to move from Patreon to Buzzsprout subscriptions and they have not made the move. I have sent several emails. I've said I'm shutting her down and like it's crickets, nobody's moving over and I just can't bring myself to kick them off of my Patreon because I like that money.

Kevin: 1:01:18

Like a lot of them, like me, for example, I would totally do this. I'd be like send all the threatening emails you want. I'm not changing this until something breaks.

Jordan: 1:01:25

Yeah, right.

Kevin: 1:01:26

Yeah. So if you shut it off for me, I would then have to go through the pain of changing and figuring out the new billing system and entering my information. I would do it, but there's a chunk of people who never will. They'll be like I'm going to keep using this until it stops working, and when it stops working I might never feel the urge to go resubscribe again. So you are going to lose a chunk of your audience. There will be a cliff that these people do fall off of at some point.

Kevin: 1:01:49

It stinks, it's not good, and I bet Apple probably feels a little bit like we shouldn't have let this go on as long as we did, because the longer it goes on, the more painful it gets. Like the larger Patreon got, but at the same time, patreon for a very, very long time wasn't that huge, and so Apple was like, yeah, we're losing some revenue here, but it's not that much, not worth our time. Now Patreon has gotten really big, so now it's worth their time to make them switch. But of course, the fall is further now because they're bigger.

Jordan: 1:02:13

Yeah, it's really rough and you know, I feel for anyone that this is going to, you know, affect them negatively, because it's hard being a creator as it is and then to have these additional pressure points put on you, it just, yeah, makes things really tough. It's time for SoundOff, the segment where you send in your responses to our podcasting questions.

Alban: 1:02:36

First came in from Richard Dodds. This is a personal text message. Richard and I are friends in real life, also a friend of the show. He texted me. I listened to the latest episode. I heard you talk about your shadow box with pins. I do the same thing, but with pins and patches and he sent a picture which you can put up as the artwork for this segment. He's got some pins at the top and then he's got patches below, and I don't know if either you zoomed in on this, but like Richard's a legit good bowler, I see that the center is 10 strikes in a row patch.

Alban: 1:03:12

We've got a 275 game which I think my highest bowling ever was like 140, so richard's like a legit good bowler.

Kevin: 1:03:21

He's also the league champion in 2005, 2006. Yep, I didn't pick up on the fact that these are all bowling related initially. What I did pick up on albin was the fact that he said he doesn't just do pins, he does pins and patches, which I feel like is a challenge to you. So I think you now have to start doing patches and you have to also start doing something else. I think you should try to one up him. Maybe you start doing get another shadow box so you have like pins, patches and stamps, and then you go back to him and you see what he adds to the mix.

Jordan: 1:03:50

Or like rocks that you pick up on your walks.

Alban: 1:03:53

Rocks Anybody. Who's ever Rocks that you pick up on your walks Rocks Anybody has ever had this. I don't know why there's a period that children go through, at like four to seven, which is like they just pick up rocks everywhere and bring them home and just start collecting rocks or at least my child did.

Jordan: 1:04:08

Yeah.

Alban: 1:04:09

But, kevin, I don't think I'm going to do the patches. I have none of these patches that are this impressive, so you could start. I'll start my bowling journey.

Kevin: 1:04:17

Rob from wicked wanderings wrote in and said on the buzzsprout website, is there a way to add custom links? So, for example, rob wants to add a link to his merch store. Uh, there's not right now, rob, but uh, it's a good idea. I'm going to mark that down as something to consider. Uh, I would say in the meantime, you can always add it into your episode footer and so it's at the bottom of every single one of your episodes. That would display in podcast apps and it would also display on your website, your podcast website, for anybody who's listening to an episode. Then you have the link there. But it's a good idea. Take it under consideration.

Alban: 1:04:46

Yeah, we got another from 2321 from the UAE. One of their suggestions and they go a little bit more technical than this, but with premium content they want to know could Buzzsprout start encrypting RSS feeds for premium content or provide an RSS feed with a passkey and then give some suggestions on how that could be done and how it could be standardized through the PSP? Kevin, you could probably answer this best. I know that there are some RSS feeds that do have passwords. That is supported in the RSS spec. Why don't we do that or do we do that, and what standardization could there be?

Kevin: 1:05:25

Yeah, so there's actually no standard for RSS specifically, but there is HTTP authentication, which would be any web page that you put out there including an RSS feed you could have to authenticate with a username and password. There's a lot of challenges with that, obviously, if you sign up 100 people who want their private RSS feed and each of them have a unique username and password, then there's all those issues of I forgot my username and password and how do they reset it and all that kind of stuff. And then there's also the complexity of getting all the apps to agree to a standard and implement it in a timely fashion and all the hosts to support that as well. One thing that doesn't require any of that is for us just to give everyone a unique RSS feed, so it's a little bit more troublesome to figure out. Like, on the subscriber side, I've never gotten a unique podcast feed just for me. How do I add that to my app?

Kevin: 1:06:09

But we can control that a little bit, in that we have got a really great support team and we can also write really great help articles and videos showing people how to do that. What we can't control, of course, is making every app podcast app maker in the world implement something that we want to now call a standard. So that's why things move a little bit slower sometimes in the open space than in a controlled platform, like when Spotify and Apple introduced their subscription offerings. They all just work out of the box because they only care about the people that use their platform. But in the open space we have to make compromises sometimes, so there's always a price to pay. We think it's worth it in order to keep an open, healthy ecosystem, but that's why. That's why.

Jordan: 1:06:43

All right, and our sound off question last episode was to share your thoughts on Snapcasts. Do you find them valuable, and should we keep them as is or change the format? And we got a message from Barnabas, from the Kids Code podcast, saying I love the Snapcast and I love the name. You've created a trend and it's easier to say than shortcast. It would be great if you kept the episodes, though. Thanks, barnabas.

Kevin: 1:07:06

Love it. Love it when a young person writes in and said we created a trend. Yeah, the oldies doing something cool, so cool, that's right doing something cool.

Alban: 1:07:14

That's right. We got a message from John Corey made a suggestion batch some content which is more evergreen and not sensitive to a two week window. Go deep into topics and the audience will love and then the production can be batched. So it's a little bit easier. You keep the two week cycle with news and events and fill in with these high value topics. This is something we should definitely consider. Do we batch every other episode to be like a deep dive where we could go do a little research and dive into something and it wouldn't have to be as production intensive?

Jordan: 1:07:46

You know, what we could do is take episodes from podcasting Q&A that's evergreen content and slap it into our feed.

Alban: 1:07:56

I feel like that's creating the problem that you hate the most, which is when you listen to a podcast and you're like, oh, here's a new episode. It's like check out somebody else from our podcast network and you're like, no, these are just advertisements.

Jordan: 1:08:09

You're right, I'm slipping into what I hate most.

Kevin: 1:08:13

Okay, oh, this just came in. Just got a notification on my phone. Most Okay, this just came in. Just got a notification on my phone. Fan mail. Here we go. Damien, the DM said team longer bi-weekly episodes with smaller previews or more time sensitive topics on the off weeks Good idea. Sounds pretty similar to John's suggestion there. Yeah, I think we're starting to get some consensus around this.

Jordan: 1:08:33

We got a message from Steph from AIM podcasting. It feels like a tease for me. If I'm honest, much, much, much preferred to keep the longer deep dives with more laughs.

Alban: 1:08:41

Thanks, steph 9043 in Alaska. Snapchat Bye-bye.

Kevin: 1:08:48

I don't know what Snapchat is. I think we're talking about Snapcast. Yeah, I think Alaska got auto-corrected. We need to teach these auto-correction things about Snapcast. Okay, rebecca from the Maker's Playbook wrote Team Albin, keep your recording schedule the same, but instead of airing lengthy bi-weekly show, just cut up the material in half and create a weekly show. Production and schedule all stay the same, with the exception of cutting the actual recording in half. Jordan, do it.

Jordan: 1:09:17

I mean that would work, except that half of our recordings are just chit chat about non-podcasting topics. So we'll have a non-podcasting episode and then we'll have an actual podcast.

Kevin: 1:09:28

I think you just do just a hard cut right in the middle of the episode and just say and we'll be back. Actually, it's a conclusion of this episode.

Alban: 1:09:35

Have you seen these premium podcasts? There's some people. What they'll do is they just cut the episode in the middle. Yeah, the previews right, it's so bad. Yes.

Kevin: 1:09:43

It's such a bad experience. You know, who does it well is Sharp Tech. They do it well Because they're a multi-topic podcast and so they'll pretty much just take one of the topics. So let's say they're going to cover two or three topics, they'll just take one of them and they give it away as a free preview. I don't think that one's that bad.

Jordan: 1:09:58

Yeah.

Alban: 1:09:58

No you guys don't like that. I have never listened to that as um the non subscriber version, but I have heard other podcasts that are when you haven't subscribed. It's literally just a hard cut at this dead center, yeah, and it's like I don't even know there was one. It didn't even say like there's a premium version, it just had it in the show notes and I was like that's a strategy. I feel like we could improve on that one quite a bit, yeah vancouver, washington, says I prefer a tighter episode once a week.

Jordan: 1:10:27

I don't listen much to the snapcast. Enjoy podcast. Movement sounds like a blast. It was a blast, thank you. And yeah, tighter episode once a week. So you are also team Albin.

Alban: 1:10:37

Rob from your most interesting story. I would very much prefer weekly shows with true or new content, any chance you could still record once a week, but split that session into two shorter weekly episodes. There's a theme here.

Jordan: 1:10:51

Yeah.

Alban: 1:10:51

Maybe push out the topics that aren't as timely. Ultimately, I'd rather have a snap cast than nothing, but those are a little unfulfilling.

Kevin: 1:10:59

All right, so I am picking up on the theme here, but my question is why? Why would we? Why would we do it Just like? Why cut the episode in half just so we can have weekly Jordan? Why can't you just cut it into 10 pieces and we can have a daily podcast? Does that seem logical, right?

Jordan: 1:11:17

It's I, it's doable. I don't know if it's logical, though, but um yeah, this this does seem to be the consensus that you can just take the piece of content and chop it.

Kevin: 1:11:23

We have to test the daily daily version and if that works. I'd say we double down. We publish twice a day 20 mini episodes of buzzcast, but it won't. It won't impact albin and I at all, because we're just going to do the same recording session, the same.

Jordan: 1:11:35

But yeah but then jordan will cut it into 20 perfectly paced mini episodes I think what's going to happen is I'm going to uh outsource to one of those ai companies that promises to take your content and chop it into like 300 different clips, and then we'll just keep publishing all the clips from this one episode every day.

Alban: 1:11:52

Yeah, uh, have either of you ever seen this like a thought leader, finance guy, who's like my first day? It starts at 8 AM, goes to noon that's one full day Then from noon to four that's my second day. And then from four to eight that's my third day. So by the end of the day, I've done three days. You've only done one day oh my gosh. That's what we're going to start doing. We're going to start doing. My first podcast episode is from minutes one to five. That's one episode, all right.

Kevin: 1:12:21

David John Clark from the Late Bloomer Actor Podcast wrote in and said I love the weekly Snapcast, whether it's informative, informal banter or just checking in on us. I do something similar on my show called Off to Script, and it's just a chance to chat, talk about current events, all that kind of stuff. So keep it going, team All right. Finally, the tide is turning.

Jordan: 1:12:45

Yes, david John Clark, thank goodness, richard from Michigan. In regards to the snapcast episode decision, a way to publish weekly and still record the same amount would be to record the longer podcast as normal, with the thought that half will be published one week and the other half will be the next. What's wrong with you people?

Alban: 1:12:58

This is the logical answer. I don't understand how many people have to tell you before we do it.

Jordan: 1:13:04

I think this is my least favorite sound off question we've ever had already All right, finish it off, jordan.

Alban: 1:13:11

What else did Richard from Michigan say?

Jordan: 1:13:13

Ben, during the Snapcast time, talk about smaller news and trending topics, then combine that with the pre-recorded pod. This is complicated, all right. So he wants us to record the same amount, the longer podcast, normal and then we're going to also have smaller news and trending topics and then we're going to combine that with the pre-recorded parts. This is like a whole operation he's proposing here.

Alban: 1:13:34

Good Lord, and then the final one, molly from small business hustle wrote in. Although as a listener I'd prefer weekly episodes that were shorter, I wouldn't want to risk your burnout and then opt for many episodes.

Kevin: 1:13:47

So I think I picked up on a theme. Given all that feedback, and let me try to summarize it, I think basically what everyone is saying is that Albin and I are doing great. We should keep doing exactly what we're doing. Jordan, it doesn't feel like you're pulling your weight around here. They want you to be doing a lot more work. Yeah, that's what everybody wants.

Jordan: 1:14:05

That is. The overarching theme here is you guys keep doing your thing. Jordan, you got to get creative. Figure out how to make this into more content. Baby, I don't like it.

Kevin: 1:14:18

All right. Well, it gives us something to chew on.

Jordan: 1:14:21

Yeah.

Alban: 1:14:22

I got to say I love it. This is great feedback. We got tons of good feedback, especially Rebecca from the maker's playbook Maybe the best feedback of the whole time.

Jordan: 1:14:31

Because she's Team Albin.

Alban: 1:14:32

Team Albin. I'd love to do a couple deep dives into something that we're really. You know. We talk around some of these topics over and, over and over. It'd be nice to do like a 20 minute summary about you know any one topic and people could reach out and say, hey, I'd love to hear a deep dive into this one topic, and maybe those could be our off weeks, jordan listen to this.

Kevin: 1:14:57

What if Albin produced Albin's deep dives and they were special episodes that dropped into Buzzcast feed every other week and he came up with the topic and he recorded a solo podcast and he edited it and just dropped it in? Yeah, I think people would love that.

Jordan: 1:15:12

That'd be great.

Alban: 1:15:14

That people wouldn't like it, but not because I don't think the quality would be there. I think the problem with Buzzcast is the same that we had with the original version of Buzzcast. Some of you may know this. The original version was two different shows combined on one feed. It was podcasting, q&a or no. It was five minute Mondays which were five-minute quick episode tips, and then on Fridays it was like an interview show with a podcaster.

Jordan: 1:15:44

Yeah, I remember that.

Kevin: 1:15:45

Back to back.

Alban: 1:15:46

The problem with that show and the problem with the Snapcast is different types of content in the same feed. I think people end up gravitating to one type of content and they're like, oh, I kind of expected it to be different.

Kevin: 1:15:58

Yeah, lots of podcast networks have tried this a while back, called like an all network feed. Yeah, and it would be whatever. If you just subscribe to the Gimlet feed, you'd get all the Gimlet shows mixed in randomly whenever they published, and they were not very successful. Now I just I don't know if they were not successful because they just didn't have a lot of subscribers, I don't know, but for whatever reason they weren't. Somebody who does this and continues to do it is Glenn from Horse Radio Network. He has a whole bunch of shows all about horses, horses in the morning and all these other shows, and they have an all network feed. That, I think, works for them. But yeah, you're right, we have tried it with Buzzcast Lots of different podcasting content mixed into one feed, and it didn't work real well.

Alban: 1:16:42

So I feel like any solution has to be at least the two of the three people on this show. I'm totally fine if the answer is that I carry a little more weight and Jordan doesn't have to edit everything, but it does feel like if the chatter and the goofing around is what people are coming for and the podcasting is the bonus, then we need to make sure that that's still there and you're not just getting like Albin doing an interview show or Albin doing a deep dive. I don't think that'll be as fun for people.

Jordan: 1:17:10

Could be fun if you're talking about drip irrigation, or merino wool socks Could be a hit.

Alban: 1:17:17

I think those things are only funny when Kevin is like trolling it and is making fun of it as I'm trying to get through it. I think that's what makes it enjoyable. No one really wants to know about my adventures in drip irrigation.

Jordan: 1:17:30

All right, so what's our sound off question for the next episode?

Kevin: 1:17:32

I have a question that I'm interested in hearing from our distinguished audience. So we've been talking for the past two weeks about Snapcast. That's the experiment that we have run with this podcast over the first six months of this year. I'm curious what experiments have you run on your podcast?

Kevin: 1:17:47

Like for better or worse have you tried any experimenting with your podcast and if it worked out, tell us how it worked out. If it didn't work out, tell us how it failed and how you changed. But any and all experiments are fair game. I would love to hear them.

Alban: 1:17:59

Yeah, please share the failures too, because those are just as useful and often quite funnier than the successes. But we need to hear it's good to hear things people are trying and they don't work. It's things to not try in the future. So, yeah, please share both of them.

Jordan: 1:18:15

I love. It All right, so to have your response feature in the next episode, go ahead and tap the link in the show notes to shoot us a text. Thanks for listening and keep podcasting.

Kevin: 1:18:34

I saw in the Buzzsprout newsletter that Megan sent out today she linked to this little article that says Pocket Cast now has podcast ratings.

Jordan: 1:18:39

Yeah.

Kevin: 1:18:40

And the team at Automatic acquired Pocket Cast maybe a little bit over a year ago and I know that they've been doing consistent, regular updates, implementing some podcasting 2.0 stuff, just making the app more stable and reliable, and I am super impressed with how the app is today. It's like way more customizable than I would say like the next most customizable app that I'd ever used had been overcast, where it lets you have all these little you know levers and buttons and things to listen to podcasts exactly how you want. I think pocket cast does that even more and seems to be doing it better, and the app seems super stable and very intuitive and I mean I was just blown away Like I reserved the right to change my opinion next week but as of today, I think this might become my daily driver podcast app. It's really, really good.

Jordan: 1:19:31

Yeah.

Kevin: 1:19:32

Have you guys ever given this like a? You know? Have you kicked the tires on it recently?

Jordan: 1:19:35

I haven't. What is that?

Kevin: 1:19:37

Ooh, well afternoon in Florida. Thunderstorm just rolled in. That was loud.

Alban: 1:19:50

That was super loud. I think I'm with you, Kevin. I met Ellie at podcast movement evolutions, who's like the product, I think she it's called. She's called like the product owner of pocket cast automatic and she's just a wonderful person. I really enjoyed meeting her talking about all the. She's called the product owner of Pocket Casts at Automatic and she's just a wonderful person. I really enjoyed meeting her talking about all the things they're working on for Pocket Casts and I feel like I've been running into more little bugs on Overcast.

Alban: 1:20:13

So I've already tried another attempt at going over to Apple Podcasts, but I think it's time for pocket cast to be, you know, to give it a real shake. So I think for the next two weeks I'm going to nuke all the podcasts out of my daily driver and I'm going to rebuild it over here in pocket casts. I think I've gotten, I've collected way too many of these shows that I'm not really listening to all of them and I think it's time to do a little spring cleaning over here in pocket cast yeah, and just restart and see which ones do I keep, which ones do I let go, and, uh, maybe document it as I go through it.

Alban: 1:20:46

Yeah, they've got the main thing that I really loved overcast for was that like automatically trimming the silences? Yeah, they have that and they have that.

Kevin: 1:20:55

So and they have it, not just turn it on or off, but you can like set the aggression level like low, medium or high.

Alban: 1:21:00

Oh really, I want people to speak at one X, but I want no silence at all.

Kevin: 1:21:10

They've got all these great view customizations, like if you just on, like the podcast, the main screen, you hit the three dots in the top right, you can sort it all these different ways, um, by like name, episode, release date, date added, drag and drop, you can say your own custom order. You can change the layout view between icons, small icons or list view, turn badges on and off, like it means just all this little stuff that I know wasn't here Last time. I looked at this like I can. I really feel like I can make this exactly the podcast app that I want to be, even so much so that on the playback screen you know it has like little buttons at the bottom. You can customize what you want those buttons to be for you and you can change the order of them.

Kevin: 1:21:47

Yeah, and so for me. You know I've always wanted the Marcus played button Like I'm done.

Jordan: 1:21:51

The episode's over for me.

Kevin: 1:21:53

I put that button right in the bottom center now on my now playing screen so as soon as I start losing interest in that podcast bang smash it, smash that, done button yeah. But like I know that doesn't make sense for most people, but I'm a strange person, but they let me be strange and so that should be their tagline. We're like we're the podcast app that lets you be strange.

Jordan: 1:22:14

The podcast app that lets you be strange Podcast app that lets you be strange, yeah.

Kevin: 1:22:18

So I mean, it took me like 15, 20 minutes of playing around with it and I was like I think I'm going to go for it. I went all in. They have a premium subscription. I don't even know what all the premium stuff is that I got, but I was like I'm buying it and then they have two different options. One is like you can be a premium member and then, if you swipe to the right, you can be a patron, which they just say is basically the exact same thing, but give us more money because you love us. And I was like I'm doing that, like they're killing it. I want to support them in the industry.

Alban: 1:22:46

How much was it to become a official Pocket Cast patron? $99 for the year. $99 for the year.

Kevin: 1:22:53

Yeah that the year. $99 for the year yeah, that's all it costs, which I know is a lot for a podcast app, but I listen to podcasts every day. It's like a part of something I do every day and I'm in the podcasting industry, and so anybody who's doing really good work in the podcasting industry I want to support them. So I thought that was super cheap. Like, if they gave me the option to give them more, I probably would have. But anyway, try it out. You can use it for completely free If you want to get some of the little advanced features like I don't know exactly what's included in the $20 a year upgrade, um, and if you have a little bit more money and want to support somebody doing cool stuff in the podcasting space, you can give them $99 for the year.

Jordan: 1:23:27

Kevin, I love that You're like I don't even know what all this does, but like, take my money.

Kevin: 1:23:33

Yeah, I mean I'm not like that in every area of my life, but like podcasting is a pretty big area of my life, so I have to support it.

Jordan: 1:23:39

Yeah.