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How to Find Great Podcast Guests: Expert Tips from Podmatch’s Alex Sanfilippo

• Buzzsprout • Episode 183

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Podcasting is all about serving your audience, and finding the perfect guest who can provide value to your listeners is essential for a successful interview show. We explore what makes a great podcast guest and how to streamline the booking process with our special guest Alex Sanfilippo, host of Podcasting Made Simple and founder of Podmatch!

We also reveal two new features in Magic Mastering! 

Filler Killer: Cautiously detects and removes filler words like "ah" and "uhm" to achieve a high-quality listening experience.

Power Clean: For particularly bad recordings, Power Clean can remove complex noises like chatter, wind, traffic, or reverb.

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Thanks for listening and Keep Podcasting!

Kevin:

Okay, I'm caught up on the outline, but I think there's something missing. Oh, we don't have to talk long about it, but I think we should talk about the update to Magic Mastering.

Jordan:

Yes, that is hot off the press Hot off the press. So fresh that it didn't even make it to the outline when I published it yesterday.

Kevin:

Yes, we need to do a proper intro for Alex in a second, but before we get there, Alex, do you use Magic Mastering on any of your podcasts?

Alex:

I sub out all of my editing, so whether someone uses it or not, I'm unsure, you're unsure.

Jordan:

Okay, this is a very diplomatic answer. Yeah.

Alex:

I'm sorry, I know what it is.

Kevin:

Well, you knew what it was, but now it's something new. It does the same great things. It's always done. I actually just put a word in there that is going to be removed by this new feature automatically. I said, um, so can you guess what the feature is?

Alex:

Yeah, it's going to remove filler words, that's right.

Kevin:

And we have a fun name for it we're calling it the filler killer.

Jordan:

So good.

Kevin:

So Magic Mastering now has an option where you can turn on the filler killer if you want. I do this all the time. I've done it a few times, just in the few sentences of explaining it. But what it does is if filler words bother you and you like to remove them in editing. Obviously that takes a lot of time usually, and so this can do it automatically. Now, if you don't have a problem with filler words, or if you just like the recording and you don't take them out, don't worry about it takes to go through a recording and edit them all out. Now the filler killer can pull them out cautiously and carefully and automatically.

Jordan:

Yeah, a lot of times when I see these kind of filler word removal tools, it will cut off the beginning of a sentence or it'll cut off like the end of a word, and what I love about the filler killer that we have is that it is cautious, and so if you have a thing where it's like, yeah, so we went in this thing, it's going to leave that one because it's attached to yeah.

Kevin:

Right. When a filler word bleeds right into another word, it typically leaves it. It's not super choppy, yeah. So I'm very excited about that, but there's more, there's more. That's just one of two great new features coming to Magic Mastering. The other one is called Power Clean, and Power Clean is not something that you turn on or off at the feature level. It is a special use case for when you happen to have a bad recording or a recording in a noisy environment, or you did a remote location recording and you're in a conference hall, or you were outside and there could be. You're in a conference hall or you were outside and there could be some wind, noise, there could be some traffic.

Kevin:

I did one of the most extreme tests I've ever done on any feature that we've ever launched and tested in Buzzsprout. I was at a swim meet this weekend and so I put in my earbuds, which are not great for recording, and I was walking around loud crowd, somebody announcing, like all the swimmers, over a loudspeaker. There was planes flying overhead, there was cars driving by and I just did a little. You know 30 second episode. I recorded that and I uploaded it to Buzzsprout and then I uploaded it again and I turned on the power clean and it was. What do you think, jordan, knock your socks off.

Jordan:

Yeah, like exponentially better. It was listenable. Yeah, this is one of those tools that is just such a huge advantage for podcasters that are recording, you know, on their phone in a public space and it's loud and don't have a good recording studio. Or maybe if you have a guest that, like, calls in and recording from their van outside of a swim meet and the audio sounds not so great and this is a good option.

Kevin:

You're interviewing somebody in a van outside of a swim meet and the audio sounds not so great. And this is a good option. That's a weird interview. You're interviewing somebody in a van outside of a swim meet.

Alex:

That's concerning yeah, I think that podcast doesn't seem like a safe show to be involved in. Right, I really like this one. I regularly suggest Magic Mastering to people and I like this feature a lot because more and more, I'm finding people that even meeting through like some of my tools and stuff that we have, they're meeting in person and then they're like hey, alex, this interview sounds terrible because I'm used to using my home studio, but we live so close we decided to meet up in person. That's a really great option for people. I love that y'all releasing that. That's very smart and helpful.

Jordan:

Yeah, and it's great that it's on the episode level. So when you go to, you know, drop your episode into the upload. You just toggle it on If it's an especially bad episode, for whatever reason, I mean it's great.

Kevin:

Right. The idea is that you would not use it, and hopefully you don't need it for every episode, but once in a blue moon you will have a sketchy recording, something that just whether it was the circumstances or here's something that happens all the time is that you get a guest on and you're you think everything sounds okay and you might even be watching them on video and everything looks okay. But they have the wrong mic configured and so they're actually recording from their laptop mic, even though they have a microphone right in front of their face that you're looking at. And so then you listen back when you start editing and you realize, oh, there's a lot of reverb or something sounds hollow. And so in those circumstances you don't want to trash the whole recording, you don't want to throw it away.

Kevin:

It was good, you still want to use it, and so now you can just power clean it and it will make it passable. We're not promising that it's going to make it studio quality, but it's going to make a massive improvement over what it was. If you use Magic Mastering, check it out. There's a new option filler killer in your settings should see power clean when you go to upload. That you can turn on or off, and if you don't use magic mastering, there's never been a better time to try it out.

Jordan:

Welcome back to Buzzcast, the podcast about all things podcasting from the people at Buzzsprout. Today we are going a little meta. We're talking about finding and booking guests for your podcast and Alban is out enjoying some time off, so we also needed to find and book a great podcast guest for this podcast. This is the first time we've had someone fill in that is outside of the Buzzsprout team since 2023.

Kevin:

But this guest pretty much, I mean if you're going outside of the Buzzsprout team, I mean Alex is like almost on the Buzzsprout team.

Jordan:

Yeah, he is.

Kevin:

He's in Jacksonville. He's in the office all the time. I see him in church every Sunday. We bump into each other. We live in one of the largest possibly the largest city, I think in all of America. Yeah, and I still randomly bump into Alex all the time.

Jordan:

You're in a lot of the same circles, yeah, so our guest is Alex Sanfilippo. Alex is the host of Podcasting Made Simple and the founder of Podmatch, which is one of the top platforms connecting podcast hosts and guests. And you started Podmatch five years ago, right? I saw that post with you and Alecia and your first photo of Podmatch. I just thought that was so cool because that was like recent. You celebrated the anniversary.

Alex:

Yeah, just a couple of weeks ago. It's funny every time she sees that picture. You know everyone has that. I don't want to call it but like the time hop thing where you can see previous years. Every time she sees that picture and then, when I post it again, she's like how did I get my hair that big? And she's like what did I do? I'm like I don't know, I'm sorry, like let's not try to recreate it though.

Kevin:

It was a very good hair day.

Jordan:

That's so funny. So I see in all the online communities, podcasters are constantly asking like where can I find guests for my show? Where can I find guests for my show? I need to find a guest for my show and I think it's really important to establish that there is a difference between finding someone willing to be like a warm body on your podcast and someone who's going to you know bring up the value of that episode. So I wanted to hear what you guys think makes a great podcast guest.

Alex:

When I think about a great guest for a podcast there's no one size fits all is the first thing I always think.

Alex:

And whenever a podcast host says, oh, I've got so many people reaching out, I don't need any help finding guests, I'm like well, maybe not like anybody, but the right ones are important. Because a great example is my 18 year old nephew would love to be on this show. He's going to talk about basketball the whole time and he barely even knows anything about that, and so that's what he wants to be on for. So it's like, sure, that's a body that can show up, but is it actually going to drive your narrative forward? Is it actually going to serve the audience and help again further the goal that you have behind the podcast? That's a totally different topic than just quote unquote finding a guest. It's bringing the right person on that, once again, is gonna actually be able to help. And I think that that's the first question a host needs to really ask, because it makes the vetting process a lot easier if you have an idea in mind.

Kevin:

To me. The whole idea of having a show that is reliant upon bringing guests in to communicate really great and big concepts that you're teaching around or entertaining around or whatever you're doing on your podcast feels so daunting to me. It gives me anxiety to think about what must go into that. I'm very blessed that we don't do a show that brings a lot of guests, because I don't think it would be hard for me to come up with the list of guests, but it feels like that is a continual burn. You continually have to have this list that you're always adding names to, and then you're always I would imagine you're always reaching out to those people, never knowing when one is going to respond and then how you slot them in to wherever you currently are and based on their availability Are they available tomorrow afternoon? When one is going to respond, and then how you slot them in to wherever you currently are and based on their availability, like are they available tomorrow afternoon? Are they available two weeks from now, two months from now? Who knows? And who knows where you are in your series, and so maybe you just have to.

Kevin:

Your recommendation would be like you've got to accommodate their schedule. You have to record when they're ready, and maybe you don't release it for a month or two months or something. But all of that feels super hard this is the easiest way to say it and so that's hopefully we get to dig into some of that on today's episode, alex, and hopefully you can bring some of your expertise, because just the idea of doing this in the first place just makes me like, oh, I don't even know that. I want to do it and I want to help people Anybody who's listening to the show who feels like having guests on their show is something that they want to incorporate. How can we make it easy for them, how can we lower that anxiety for them and how can we help them do it successfully?

Jordan:

I think that that is kind of the root of the problem of people just grabbing whoever they can for their podcast. When you're first starting your podcast, you're like, oh, I'm so little and no one wants to be on my show. I just need to get someone on and I like this person and so my audience will like this person. And I think that that's really where a lot of people misstep looking for podcast guests is that they just they're too intimidated to find someone who's going to bring a lot of value.

Alex:

I agree with that and I think that if I could go back to when I first started and put myself back in those shoes I don't know if it's exactly the same date, but Buzzcast and my previous podcast Creating a Brand, which is still my same feed today, I believe they started like the same week, maybe even the same day, I'm not sure.

Jordan:

No way.

Alex:

I can remember like when I launched, the first two episodes were I interviewed a friend and she interviewed me, so it was kind of like pretty easy, right. And then past that, I didn't give it much thought. You know, Buzzcast wasn't around yet, so I didn't have the help I needed. So I just like launched and I was like I'll just figure it out and, like Kevin said, it was like oh man, why would anyone want to be on this show? Like I'm still like learning how to articulate it and stuff. I was very grateful that people did give me the time of day I was able to get guests and being a little bit desperate and just like I'll just try and see if they'll come up. They will, Then I can find a topic and somehow make it work, Right.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Alex:

I think that that's the problem. I think that the imposter syndrome that settles in for us as hosts is real, but I do think we need to understand that having a podcast as a platform is a gift to anybody else these days, any guests that you have on. When I go back to those days, I can remember like I feel like I was begging a little bit. I'm like, please, come on podcast, please, please, please. And now fast forward years later, not that I have like the biggest podcast or anything like that, but people are, like it's the opposite, like please, let me on your show, please, please, please, please, right, oh yeah, it's totally flipped. I think that's just the culture of podcasting. People are seeing the value in it. So, whether sell yourself short, you have something that is really valuable and reach out with confidence when you know someone's the right fit for it.

Jordan:

And I know you're not being hyperbolic, because I will see you post on Facebook like hey, who wants to be on Podcasting Made Simple, and it's just like 200 comments of people being like me, me, me. I've recently been asked to guest on podcasts about podcasting who are just starting up, and so you know, like some of them don't even have episodes out, and it's so funny because they reach out and they're like I know this is a long shot, but I really want you in, Like you're really helpful in the community, and I'm just like, yeah, and they're like wait what? Seriously, I think that that is another thing that people need to keep in mind about the podcasting community. I mean not just the podcasting community, but people genuinely want to help you. I mean, especially if you're coming forth and you're very like genuine about it and honest and it's meaningful, I think that people will say yes more than likely.

Alex:

Yeah, I agree with that, and it's interesting If somebody does come to me pre-launch, I always ask what the launch date is going to be.

Alex:

And that determines whether they're going or not. If they say I'm not really sure yet, then I'm like well, when you have the launch date, let me know and then we can schedule something. But if there's no launch date yet, I'm like are you really going to do this? Are we just going to spend an hour together and it's never going to go anywhere? So that's like my one filter. You know it's funny.

Alex:

You mentioned those, the posts that I do on social media, and I always say that this is a podcast about podcasting.

Alex:

For podcasters Like I make it very clear and I try to use as few words as possible without fail. Every time I get a message from a bunch of people they're like hey, I've got a really great story about how I overcame this traumatic event in my life and how now I'm doing this and it makes me feel bad, but I have to protect my audience. That's not what they're showing up for. So I was like hey, sorry, like it's not really the focus of the show. Most of them totally understand, but sometimes people are like are you kidding? You don't want like a story of people like you know, coming back around and overcoming trouble. I'm like my audience isn't here for that there are podcasts for that, but it's not mine, and so again, pre-launch launch, whatever it is, protecting what it is that you're doing is so, so important, and I always say you don't owe anything to potential guests, but you owe everything to your listeners, so don't try to cater for a guest. Make sure you're catering for your listeners.

Kevin:

Alex, what do you think is the proper perspective to have when you're looking for guests for your show? Do you feel like in most cases it's the podcaster is looking for people to do them a favor, or do you feel like guests are looking for podcasts to do them a favor? Or is it best when it's reciprocal and kind of equal on both sides?

Alex:

The simple answer is it's best when it's the same on both sides, everybody understanding that like it's an opportunity for both of us to be able to add value and serve together. Sometimes I run into guests that are the most entitled people I've ever met. They're like I will do the honor of being on your show. I'm like, oh man, that seems icky, right. And the flip side is like, hey, I've got the best podcast in the world, I would love to let you on my show, right. Like I've heard both sides.

Alex:

But typically I'm like a research guy, so I always listen to those guests or those shows and they're typically just not the best on either side. I find the people that are just kind, saying hey, I think that there's a message that we could share together that will really add value to my audience or that would add value to your audience if it's the guest speaking to the host. But those are the ones that I find where there's that mutual respect and understanding that like, hey, we're not here for ourselves. There might be something in it for us, but we're here to help somebody else. Those are the type of people that, personally, I like to have on my show, with that humble attitude and mindset, knowing that we're showing up for something beyond just us.

Jordan:

Yeah, so when you're looking for podcast guests because I mean podcasting made simple, podcasting made simple live you connect with so many people in the industry, so I want to know what, to you, makes a great podcast guest.

Alex:

So for me, like Kevin said, this is probably the stressful part, but I always try to know the direction of my listener, like what are they learning right now? To me, I always view my podcast listener as having they're on a transformative journey and they're somewhere along the way in that Like, what are they looking for next? And so when I'm looking at a guest, I'm thinking how does this play a role in that journey that my listener is on right now? And so I'm always kind of like thinking and strategically like okay, that makes sense to be here. I look for the person that can really cover one topic very, very well.

Alex:

I don't mind a good story, but my podcast isn't a storytelling podcast. So it's for podcast hosts, right, and podcast guests. But so I don't need the story of how you launched your podcast in six months and how it's grown and what you're doing now. That's great. What I want to know is how you figured out how to get one new person to listen every day. Just dive deep on that one thing and can you talk about that for 15 or 20 minutes, versus like hey, yeah, here's the whole story of it, right, my show is a little bit unique, like that, and I love actionable advice, so my podcast is full of it.

Alex:

I always try to make sure, like, is there a takeaway in here? Like, if I listen to this 15 minute thing, is it just information or is it? Hey, here's the three things you need to do in order to accomplish the same thing I did, and so I guess those are kind of like masters of their craft, right? They're people that are ready to give like a TEDx type of talk. Like those are very pointed, very deep ideas, right, that people are sharing. I'm looking for the someone that's at that level of mastery on whatever it is that their unique topic is, to share that with my listeners.

Kevin:

So are you keeping, like, multiple lists of potential guests that you'd like to have at any given time?

Alex:

Yeah, and because my podcast being in the industry, I look at all the big conferences and I go through and look at every track, session or keynote. I look at all their titles and that's the way I find people. So I'll look at that and that's kind of like my target list. Those are the people that I'm reaching out to saying, hey, you covered this. You just did it in 30 minutes. Could you drop it down to 15 and do it without a presentation? And like that's kind of how I'll reach out to people.

Jordan:

Oh, that is really a good way to vet, like okay, is this person someone worth listening to? Are they an expert on the subject matter? Like I hear people talk about being I forget the word. Is like clip worthy? Or like do they speak in bumper stickers?

Kevin:

Right, are they all?

Alex:

soundbites.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Alex:

Soundbites Okay, yeah, okay, I like bumper sticker better though.

Jordan:

That's what I've heard. I didn't make that up, I don't know, but yeah, that's such a good way to vet if someone is I don't know worth listening to.

Kevin:

Yeah, that does feel very practical because I imagine, regardless of the genre of your podcast, there's probably some sort of conference around that covers it. Whether it be gardening or real estate or youth sports or something, there's conferences for all of these things, and whether you go to the conferences or not doesn't matter. They're going to publish the speaker lists for all of them. They're going to give you some sort of summary of what the topic is, how this person is going to approach it and then who that person is. And if that person is already giving talks and they've already been vetted a little bit enough to be speaking at a conference, I imagine they might be a good podcast guest. They probably guested on other podcasts already.

Jordan:

You could probably find those podcasts pretty easily listen to them and figure out if they'd be a good fit for your show. Yeah, Okay. So that kind of like ties into the next point we have, which is that, like, bigger isn't always better. David John Clark from the late bloomer actor. He actually wrote in and said I was thrilled to land two big name guests in my niche. Both episodes did well and delivered real value. But it's discouraging when the same guest shows up on a dozen similar shows in the same week because they're on a book or course promo tour and he wants to know, like, what's our take? Should we decline those requests and invite them back after the promotion blitz?

Alex:

I've got a lot of thoughts on this topic. Kevin, I don't know if you had something you want to jump in with, but I might. I'm going to try not to monologue, but I might.

Kevin:

Well, before you monologue, let me let me hit on some advice that I heard from the Tim Ferriss show. So I listened to Tim Ferriss show. I think he's a great interviewer and one of the reasons I like his interview style is it addresses exactly this. He has people on his show all the time that are on many other podcasts and tell the from the perspective of what's something unique that I can get them to open up and share, that they're not sharing, that other podcasters, other interview people, other like news articles have been written about them. They're not touching and because of that it takes him a long time to do the prep and the research ahead of time before the guest comes on the show.

Kevin:

But he does find these unique things and oftentimes you'll hear when Tim is interviewing people. They'll be like, oh my gosh, I've never asked that before, how did you know that? Or who told you that? They're the most interesting stories. Because you can get the promotional stuff. You can get that anywhere. Why do I go to the Tim Ferriss show and listen to his interviews? Because he always brings something unique. He gets something special out of the guests.

Jordan:

That's the way Sean Evans from Hot Ones is, too Like these people. You see them on all the late night shows and stuff like that, but then you also see them on Hot Ones and it's like I'm going to watch that one because there's going to be some like weird stuff coming up from their past that I had no idea about.

Kevin:

Right, cause he sets their brains on fire with hot sauce and they can't think and so they start oversharing.

Alex:

That's a good strategy. Maybe any podcast host that wants to have a unique interview basically poison your guests when they're there and you should be all right.

Jordan:

Give them some truth serum.

Alex:

You know, to piggyback off what Kevin just said, I agree that you can get some of these bigger names to break their soundbites or whatever it is that we want to call those right. We can get them to kind of break their mold, but you have to be up to the challenge and that's going to be a lot of work. A lot of them are very much so programmed to go back to what their publicist told them. You need to say this, right. I think back a few years to you might remember this Matthew McConaughey let out a book called Greenlights and he did like a podcast where he must have gone on over 100 shows and his publicist reached out to me and it really didn't fit my show anyway. But I was like, let me just listen what he's saying on a few different shows. You could have copy pasted his answer on every show I listened to. And so I just politely declined with his publicist and I was just like, hey, my show isn't about this and I know I'm not going to get him to say anything different, like I'm just not going to have the energy for it. It's not like a pound the back, oh, but my point is, if you're not up to that challenge, then don't do it.

Alex:

And the other problem I had I had friends that had him on like multiple friends and they're like it didn't grow my show at all. I'm like, well, he's just doing his reps, he's not going to share it, he's not going to talk about it in his next movie, how he was on your following, assuming that we'll get access to that big following if we have the big name on. And the reality is, if you're just another one of the interviews, they're not going to share it. And I'm not trying to be rude by saying that, but at the same time people can just look that information up. It's on other podcasts, right.

Alex:

What I find to be the best type of conversation I've had on my podcast is the one that's truly unique. I can think at one point I had like a big name on my show. The episode did okay. The next week I had somebody on. It was his first time ever on a podcast. He had no social following at all, but the amount of listens that that one had versus the one the week before, it was like triple or something like it was something just wild. And the thing is I couldn't figure out. I'm like, how come this famous person couldn't get more people to listen, but this guy who has no name, no following, was able to.

Alex:

It's because the conversation was absolutely just on par for what I knew my listeners wanted. There was no me trying to flex a little bit to have a bigger name on, and so I'm not trying to talk bad about celebrities or more popular influencers or anything like that. That's fine to have them on. Just if we make that our primary goal, we're going to miss out on the really raw and authentic conversations that listeners are actually showing up to learn something from.

Jordan:

That's a really good point. I actually interviewed Kate Casey. She has a podcast about like reality TV and stuff like that and she has a lot of celebrities on her podcast and so I had her on to talk about how to get guests to share your episode and the amount of acrobatics that she goes through and follow up and making sure she has promo images several of them, all the ones they could want and everything looks good and everything's perfect. It sounded exhausting. And, yeah, you can get people to share things. If you like, hire graphic designers to make everything look amazing and you go through all these like collaboration techniques in Instagram, but I don't know if it's worth it and they still might not do it, you know.

Alex:

Yeah. My question to that is is it just vanity at that point, like, let's imagine I have a big name on and they share it and it gets this big spike in my downloads and the next week it goes back down because people didn't show up for me, they showed up because they liked my guests. That one week, like do I have to take care of that fire for the rest of my podcast now to keep those downloads up? Like I need next week's guests to do the same thing and just keep on going. It turns into a bit of a vanity metric. And then the day what's the point of a download Like? What is that number Like? Does it have any real depth or meaning to it beyond just me? I'm like, I've got a big podcast right. Like and listen.

Alex:

If that is someone's goal, say that that's necessarily wrong. I just question how long you can keep up with that. And so for me, I don't care about the one-off spikes. Because I brought someone famous on, I have more downloads. I more so want to know am I actually serving the person I set out to serve with my podcast? And I probably sound repetitive saying that today. Everything for me goes back to that. Am I actually delivering on the promise I'm making to somebody. So I personally don't look at my download numbers very much. All I really care about is if it's somebody reaching out to me on an ongoing basis. It's like a different person every day telling me hey, this really impacted my life, this really helped me, because if I can see a podcast host or guest saying that to me, it means I've done my job for the day, versus just trying to chase big numbers.

Kevin:

I really like the story you shared. The Matthew McConaughey, that's it. Yep, matthew McConaughey.

Alex:

That's it, yep, matthew, something.

Kevin:

You can tell I'm a huge fan of this guy. Yeah, you are. I know he's an interstellar. I like that movie.

Alex:

That's my favorite movie, so, yeah, I'm with you All right.

Kevin:

So I really liked that story because you kind of surmised was that you just didn't have the energy for it. And I've heard I his show, have had a lot of media training and it's very, very difficult for him to push through the media training and try to get them to say something that they're not been instructed to say. But that's what makes his show interesting. He's very good at it. But it's a little bit like you've probably all seen some of these Senate hearings when they ask very direct questions like they'll read something and they'll say give me a yes or no answer. They never get a yes or no answer. The person never says yes or no because they've been trained that that is a trap and you will not say yes or no. Here's what you will say instead. And they ask the question a different way, a different way, but it is brutal. It takes a lot of energy.

Kevin:

You have to be an expert at it and I think maybe the advice to podcasters who are listening now should be like is that part of your why? Like why did you start podcasting in the first place? Is that part of it? Did you want to become an expert interviewer? Did you want to be able to push through media training. Did you want to be able to make people feel uncomfortable in a charming way that doesn't turn off the audience that you're a bully Like? That's a specific skillset and if it's part of your why, then go for it. But oftentimes I think podcasters just see a big name or somebody who released a book or something and they say, sure, like I'm going to do it. But you end up with an episode that isn't different, it isn't unique, it's not speaking to your audience and it's really not accomplishing any of your whys, of why you started a podcast in the first place.

Jordan:

So we kind of touched on it earlier, but let's move on to where to look for guests. Where can I find a good guest for my podcast?

Alex:

I'm going to immediately share something that is like not well received usually.

Jordan:

Ooh, I love it, Hot takes.

Alex:

Typically people say start with your network, start with your friends, start with your family.

Jordan:

That's what I was thinking.

Alex:

So I get the notion of that, but I listen to new podcasts all the time because I want to hear how it goes. I can't tell you how many times I listen to a podcast that starts off with two people already laughing when they hit record. I don't get it. I'm like what's funny? This is my childhood best friend and she just made a face that only I would get and I'm just laughing about it. I'm like okay, as a listener, I'm now officially an outcast, Like I'm not invited into the conversation. This is an inner circle conversation and there's so many times where I hear inside jokes. People laugh.

Alex:

I'm like I don't really have time to explain that today and it's like okay, well, you're making me feel like I don't belong here as a listener and I think, especially at first, when you're trying to build trust and establish trust with listeners, you're doing the opposite by saying, hey, you're kind of here but don't engage with us. We're having our thing here, right, and some people are good enough to not do that. Like at interviewing, having conversation, I've actually found that I'm not. When I have guests on that are friends and people I know like they're going to cut up with me. I'm going to tell an inside joke that I know I shouldn't tell, but I just can't help myself and typically I's a hard thing to say and again, a lot of people have given me kickback on this. But I always say, like your friends, your existing network, your family, if you feel like you really needed it first, just be mindful of the fact that everyone needs to know like, hey, we're going to leave a lot of our inside jokes and inner circle stuff outside of this and this conversation needs somebody else. But that's why I like immediately starting to reach out to who's the person that you say is good for your listener.

Alex:

It might not be your mom, right, and that's okay. That it's not your mom, or your sister, your cousin, it's okay to start reaching out, and we talked about earlier. But that imposter syndrome tells us, hey, we need our friends and family first. But the reality is I don't think you do anymore, Even as a new podcaster, if you've got a real focus and niche for it. A guest who understands the value of being a guest is going to see that and see the value in it from day one, even before it's launched, they're gonna be able to say, yeah, I already know, I want to be part of something like that. Listen, I know again, not a popular opinion. That is my thought, and I'd actually love to hear what you guys have to share on that as well.

Kevin:

Yeah, well, let me, let me see if I can popularize it for you. What do you think your connected network to ask them if they know anybody. So they'd be one removed, but at least you'd still get that warm intro to help build your confidence as a new podcaster. So you can go to your best friend you can say hey, you know I'm doing this podcast, I'm super excited about it. At some point I want to have you on, but I don't want just the two of us cutting up inside jokes. You know, to start off, I want to kind of get my bearings before we go into that. Do you know anybody who I don't talk with on a regular basis who you think might be a good fit for the show? What do you think about that?

Alex:

I like that. That's a good idea. I probably should have done that when I started. I just had my friends on repeat until people were like dude.

Jordan:

This is annoying.

Alex:

Granted, this is years back, but no, I think that's a smart idea, asking. That's like an extended network, right, it goes beyond your existing network, so it's of know Jordan, so we can have a conversation, not be too nervous. I think that that's a really smart, easy way to get into it.

Kevin:

Yeah, one or two degrees of separation might be a really good place to start.

Jordan:

Yeah, yeah, it reminds me of I don't know if it's this way for everybody, but when you're in high school and you get your first job at, like, the coffee shop and your best friend also is getting a job at the coffee shop, and you two are just having like the best time and then the manager gets after you and says hey, don't be so chatty. Like need to present well to customers.

Alex:

This story seems very specific. A lot of details, jordan Is this like a friend that you know that had this happen, or I'm not going to go into specifics.

Kevin:

See, Jordan's had media training. We can't break her.

Alex:

That's the problem. Here I've been. I've been looking for it the whole time.

Kevin:

Yeah, I do like those shows where you do have people who have that connection with each other, but they're typically like co-hosts, right? Yeah, like, think about the Smartless guys. It feels like they are all really good friends in real life. I don't know if they are, maybe they're just really good actors, but it feels like that and they do have inside jokes and they do carry these themes from episode to episode to episode and so the longer you listen, the more you get that stuff.

Kevin:

But that wouldn't work if it was just a guest coming on for one episode and then leaving. That would feel like what Alex described, as you just did an episode and I felt like an outsider. I didn't get to pick up on the jokes. So, as I'm processing this information, I don't want anyone to hear that we're saying don't do a podcast with your friend. Absolutely do a podcast with your friend. But this is different than what we're talking about with a friend coming in for one episode. You have to approach it with an intentional mindset and make sure that you're including your audience in the conversation.

Jordan:

Yeah, we actually had a family message from Sarah from Wish I'd Known Then and she said we prefer to feature people we have a genuine connection with, whether through friendship and online group or fellow podcasters in the same or related niche. I think she's kind of bringing forth the point of where it's good to have you know, friends or acquaintances on your podcast is that you have already established a connection with them and they're going to be comfortable with you. But I think that's with a caveat of being intentional, that they are a good fit for your audience at the same time.

Alex:

Yeah, I agree with that and I think that, to kind of further that point, you mentioned online groups.

Alex:

I think that if you think of something like LinkedIn, reddit, facebook groups, specifically like those are three places that I personally suggest people to go, especially when you're like newer. I think it can work really well to kind of see what's out there. Like is there even a group for this which can also validate the idea you have for your podcast? Like, I know somebody had a podcast she started about grooming golden doodles specifically. Wow, that's very niche. And so she's like I don't know if anyone really likes that, but she found a Facebook group that apparently had a ton of people and I don't know the number, but to see if there's any people in there that might want to be on the show. Yeah, but maybe a pro move here if you are like hey, I want to kind of build a relationship with these individuals.

Alex:

Like the LinkedIn groups, the Reddit threads, the sub threads is whatever it's called these days and the groups find the admins, the people running it right, and like ask them hey, do you today with you all? I listened to the show, even though I know both of you. I just wanted to get my myself in the right mindset of this is who I'm talking to and just to be prepared. So I always say like, even if you don't know somebody, find a way to listen or watch something else they've done, so you can start building that synergy before you even get to the green room.

Jordan:

You can even just find great podcast guests by looking through comments. Who's really active in that community, who's really helpful, who's bringing value to people, who's the one that's, like always willing to jump in and, like, explain things to people. Those are probably going to be really wonderful guests for your podcast, because they know what they're talking about. They're eager to help. Online communities are an absolute gold mine, but not just like posting hey, I have a podcast, who wants to guest on it? I think that that is a huge mistake that I see.

Alex:

Oh man, anytime I see that, I'm like what are you doing? Do you want anybody Cause again? That's where my cousin's at my 18 year old cousin wants to talk about basketball on your football podcast.

Jordan:

So yeah, that's exactly what I see all the time and people are like well, I don't know what's your podcast about.

Kevin:

Well, Alex, let me ask you, because I know you're not going to talk about it unless I asked you specifically, but you run Podmatch, which is the guest booking platform for podcast guesting. Tell me what is the difference between like what you do with Podmatch versus some of these other online groups and communities that you mentioned, like LinkedIn, Reddit and Facebook?

Alex:

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to even chat about that. I appreciate it. Podmatch was born out of a place, of me asking podcasters what they were struggling with, and I go back to actually 2020, right before the world shut down.

Alex:

I was at a podcasting conference and when I got off stage, I just asked anyone who talked to me, pen and paper in hand, what are you struggling with? And I continuously heard finding the right guests for my show and streamlining that whole booking process. And so when I went home this is a long story, short, but ultimately ended up saying, okay, like what if we not reinvent the wheel? What's something that is doing this right? And I thought about like the dating app I guess industry, if you'll call it that. Listen, I've been married too long to ever use a dating app. So I had to call a friend and be like can I watch you use your app? And he was super concerned, by the way, because I just wanted to watch how this works. He goes like are you and Alicia okay? Anyway, we were fine, I just was curious. So basically, we came back and design was just this idea of a dating app, but instead of connecting for dates, we can't go for podcast interviews.

Alex:

And that was the idea behind Podmatch. And the whole thing is, there's a lot of people who want to be guests on podcasts, but they're not all the right people, and so the idea was can we somehow find those right different signals, like the basic ones? Are we speaking the same language? Like literally the same language? Are we available at the same time? Do we have the same ideas? Do we have the same focus?

Alex:

And the whole thing was just can we just put those right people in front of each other, let them message back and forth and then get it scheduled, while we automate as much as we can in between? And so for me, that was a game changer, and still to this day, I find 90% of my guests through Podmatch, which it's weird for me to say it is my own service, but that's where I'm looking for my guests, because it has just saved me so much time and energy, which is the idea behind it. And so that's what we've done our best to be able to solve, and the podcasters are using it or reporting that it's saving them a lot of time and energy and they're finding that they're connecting with the best guests for their show. I mean, I think it's reasonable for you to be using Podmatch to find podcast guests. I mean, we use Buzzsprout for hosting our podcasts, so that's good to know. I was very curious. Well said, jordan, you're right. It is okay for me to use Podmatch, I agree.

Jordan:

So Podmatch, part of the streamlining process of that is the podcasters like fill out information about them as guests. They fill out information about their podcast if they're a host looking for guests, right, and then do you match based on that information. Or is it a little bit deeper than that?

Alex:

The matching goes a bit deeper than that, but that is a big part of it. That's kind of like the beyond are we speaking the same literal language? Right, like the basics. Beyond that, it's now looking at what a guest says they talk about. Because, yes, we ask guests, we help them build out a media.

Alex:

One sheet that's very detailed and it explains hey, here's my talking points, here's kind of the big ideas, here's what I know a lot about. And the host side they also say the same thing and the system can match them and we use a bit of AI in there that provides what's called like a match alignment. So just in a single paragraph, it tells you hey, jordan's a potential direction that your audience would really like. That's unique, that this person hasn't talked about before, but it still stays within their kind of zone of genius, if you will, and so it kind of can help with that. We never tell people to use that. We actually say the opposite, like don't just use this, these ideas, but they should give you some direction for your research and your idea behind it. So, yeah, the whole thing. Once again, it's just like let's just take care of the stuff that's gonna take us forever.

Alex:

One of my least favorite parts about having a guest on that's outside of Podmatch is I first have to figure out what they want to talk about. Right, like and does that align? Because they released a book 20 years ago that'd be really good, but they probably don't want to talk about that book anymore. What are they doing now?

Kevin:

Right, this kind of was born out of the idea of, like, what dating apps are doing for people we could do for podcast guesting. This is fantastic. So it does seem very much like, just like with the dating analogy you could go to bars, you could go to social events, you could do all this stuff and you it's just not efficient. Right, and I think that's where people were with the technology solution, the same thing, and I think what you're saying is tell me if I'm wrong, but there are ways for you to guess without using a service such as pod match. But if you get serious about it and you want to be more efficient, like one of the things, that sort of hopefully, for most people, the end game with dating is that you find the one and you're done, but with podcast guesting, like it goes on forever, it's actually a really good business model.

Kevin:

You're in here.

Jordan:

Alex.

Alex:

Thank you Appreciate it.

Kevin:

Yeah, cause there is no. I landed the guest. My podcast is over. It's like no, now you need the show for next week. You need another guest, you need another guest, you need another guest. So at some point, I would think most people who are running shows for long periods of time need to find ways to become more efficient, and that's when they should look for a service like Podmatch.

Alex:

Right, Absolutely, and I know we're not talking about the podcasting data today, but you all know it how few podcasters are actually remaining active. And it's because many people were just like, oh, I'm just kind of doing it my own way, I'm like, man, do it your own way, like you're spending 15 to 20 hours a week to put in place, oh yeah, and that really in the day. Kevin, I think you said it perfectly. That's what it is. It's a project management tool, it's a productivity tool that just helps streamline that side of the process, right.

Jordan:

Yeah, I mean you mentioned how it streamlines just even making a one sheet, which is basically like a podcasting resume in a way, as a guest, as an expert. And I remember when I made my one sheet and just Googling how to make a one sheet for your podcast and like actually putting it together and making it look nice, I spent the entire day on this stupid thing. And so just the idea of having a website where I'm just like okay, I'm going to fill in this field, I'm going to fill in this, and then it's just on a website and then not only that, I also don't have to like, then find people to send my one sheet to. You're going to find it for me. So yeah, I just think that's so great. And that kind of ties into our next point about, like, how much research a host should do on a guest.

Alex:

I think it depends on the kind of the format of the show. Example if you have a show about like overcoming a traumatic event in your life, you probably don't need to do a whole lot of research because if you do too much as the host, you're gonna sound insensitive by asking detailed questions that you spent too much time organizing right. It's probably better for you to be in the moment. If someone's gonna like cry on your show as they're talking through this really tough time, you don't want to. You want to be there in that moment with them. So it depends on the kind of, the flavor of the show that you're going for Me type A point speaker, right, like I want like the three takeaways, like I want to do a lot of research. So, example next week I'll be interviewing Pat Flynn on my show.

Alex:

I'm currently reading his latest book because I know that's what we're going to talk about. So I want to read his book and pull up the specific points I know would be best fit for my audience and I've already voiced that with him. Hey, we've got a tight 28 to 32 minutes and I'm going to be asking you questions that are inside the book and, like I've made it very clear to him like it's not gonna catch you off guard. We're gonna go straight into that, knowing that. That's my strength. So I'm doing go listen to him on a few podcasts talking about his book as well, so because I want to actually hear it. So for me, I do a lot of research because I know that my type of show warrants the need to do that right and I need to put my spin on it. So I think for each it's different, but my least favorite is when the host just says nothing.

Alex:

Like yeah, I do. That is a pet peeve of mine.

Jordan:

Like the host. Host goes oh wow, you have a book. I'm like, of course they have a book. Like they're best selling author, Like did you not even Google their name? Like okay, this makes a lot of sense coming from you.

Jordan:

I, at the very least, will go and look at someone's like about them on their website, Right, and so I go on to pod match and I look at Alex's about and he has this like short little blurb about you know how? He's the co-founder of PubMatch and he's the host of this podcast. And then you get like an additional about me and I wish everyone did this. I really, really want everyone to listen very carefully. You should have this on your website. You click on this other about me and you get Alex's whole life story, starting like age 10 fishing golf balls out of the lake. And I have such a deeper understanding of how you work and how you operate and why you're always just on and talking to people and who you are as a person, because you had this like gorgeous novella about your life on your About Me page. It was so good.

Alex:

Thank you, you just made my day. I appreciate that.

Jordan:

It was awesome.

Kevin:

I haven't read this, so I'm going to go find it as soon as we're done.

Jordan:

Seriously, I read it and I was like I didn't know half of this about Alex. And now I just I wish that I had talked to you more about your past when we were at hanging out at like podcast conferences and stuff like that.

Alex:

I kept on telling you to ask and you just wouldn't, wouldn't try. I'm just kidding.

Jordan:

Jordan, are you going to ask about me? Are you going to ask?

Alex:

about me at all, or are you just going to talk about yourself more? Okay, go ahead. No, that's not what happened. But you know, I think to me the two different like bios, if you will, or descriptions about us one I call a podcast introduction, and that's typically what a host is going to read and I think every guest they need to develop that because that's going to help the host want to do their research but also introduce you in a great way and then you can have your extended like here's my full story if you want to hear more about me. But I think having that introduction is really key and if you're a host and you're thinking of having a guest on, ask if they have that.

Alex:

Don't leave it up to yourself to make it. I know AI can help with it these days, but a lot of that feels a little one-dimensional. But I like when people just have a really short, impactful bio. That's just enough to make the listener say, ooh, this person sounds interesting, because I've also heard the six-minute intro on someone. I'm like, my goodness, I don't really care anymore. Right, you lost me after your 20th bestselling book. We got to talk about more, right? So I think it's important to understand the difference between those two. But I think everyone having that's important, and for podcast hosts, especially newer ones, if you can find guests with introductions in a longer bio, that's going to help you so much with framing a good conversation.

Jordan:

Absolutely.

Kevin:

Let me ask you just to bring it back to kind of where we started in this segment, which is how much research is the right amount of research before you reach out in the first place? No-transcript.

Alex:

Thank you for clarifying this. This is really important, because you can waste all your time or maybe use none. I've tried both tactics. For a while. I kind of did more of the spray and pray method, where it was just like, if they say yes and they bite, I'll do my research, and so I did that probably the first year of my podcast, and it never really worked for me and perhaps I'm just not a great writer, but a lot of them I was even sending like little pitch videos and stuff, just keeping it really short, and again it just I didn't see a lot of return on investment of my time for doing that, even though it wasn't like a lot of time. It was a lot of quantity, though, and then I switched to doing not all my research, I'd say 30 minutes before I reached out so I could have a few really pointed things, and that almost worked always, and if it didn't, it was a hey, not right now, not a hey, leave me alone. Never it was a hey. This is really great.

Alex:

I got a book coming out in six months. Reach back out to me then, because I think it just showed that I'm willing, as a host, to at that point, but me spending, I say, 30 minutes. It was probably between 30 minutes and 45. I think that was probably about the amount of time that I would reserve my calendar to strictly go in and just find as much information as I could. That would be helpful in the way that I'd reach out to them. So to me I err more on the side of let me do a little bit more time and now that Podmatch exists, that is a bit easier. If you're on a platform like that, it's going to streamline that time when you reach out. For me that maybe takes 10 minutes at most. Now I'm probably between five and 10 minutes. But if it's someone off, like Pat Flynn, again, I wanted to see his new book. I read the introduction of his new book. I saw that he was posting about it and talking about how he was going to do a podcast tour.

Kevin:

So I mentioned all those things. I love the receipt. I love the receipt I was going to read the book so I took a gamble.

Alex:

I took an $18 gamble and I got it.

Kevin:

That's amazing. Keep going with that. I love the practicality of where you just ended with that. The receipt is beautiful. What else should podcasters be including in outreach emails to guests that they want on their show?

Alex:

Mentioning your audience is really important. If they hear too much like hey, I'm a huge fan, I really want you on the show Most people you're reaching out to probably feel that way, and if they're not, somebody that has a lot of fandom, perhaps that would scare them off anyway, right. But if you can somehow mention like hey, this is who my listener is Like, this is the person that we're going to be able to serve. So I've done this so many times now. I can think of the first time I had oh, I struggle with his last name, mike Michalowicz.

Alex:

Profit First is his book, and he's really well known in the profit side of business and understanding how all that works. And the first time I reached out to him, I actually read his book before I ever reached out. I bought it, reached out and then did that. I left him a review on I would love to talk to you about this and then sent the invitation and, sure enough, I got a response. It was me just really showing that like hey, it's not just I loved your book and want to talk to you about it. It was like hey, I enjoyed your book, these people would also enjoy it. I don't think they know about it, yet let's, let's bring you on to actually have a conversation about it.

Alex:

And so I always try to frame it as like hey, this is going to grow your audience of people who want to buy your book. I think like I always try to position it that way. If there's an author beyond that, I just try to find like the I guess it's like the hook, I don't know. Like I try to find the thing that makes them say, yep, that's exactly what I can serve. Let's do it Like I'm looking for those little key pieces, and that comes with a little bit of time, a little bit of research, yeah.

Jordan:

Yeah, that's a very like thoughtful way to front load the value in your pitch email. A lot of people are just like hey, I think that you know you have a lot of like expertise and my, my listeners would love to hear from you, which is fine, like that's good. But saying this thing that you did really resonated with me good, but saying this thing that you did really resonated with me and I want to share it with others. Will you help me do this? And I think that that is just a very intentional way to say please come on the podcast and help me.

Kevin:

Yeah Well, and doing this succinctly, I have to imagine, is a bit of an art form that you get better at over time, right?

Alex:

It definitely is One thing I didn't mention here. Actually, kevin, like it is an art form. I look at the guest and how they engage online. What I mean by that is if I'm on their Instagram and every day they're posting selfie videos, my pitch to them is going to be a selfie video of me walking outside. Like they're walking outside, because I know that they will receive that type of thing. It shows like that's what they like.

Alex:

I have an example of a friend who was a professional soccer player or football player because he was in Europe, and he on his bio says I never check my email, don't email me. And I had some people be like how do you get this guy on your show? I've emailed him 100 times and you won't respond. I'm like well, he says he doesn't check his email. I'm like but I'll tell you what he responds to every comment on LinkedIn. Like have you considered maybe dropping him a comment on LinkedIn? Not doing the full pitch, but just being like oh, I'd love to chat with you. Would you ever be open to that? I can send you more details. We got to meet people where they are instead of just saying this is how I do it. I'm married to my idea, like look at them and see what they're doing and mirror that. It takes a little bit of time and once you've kind of gotten some reps in, I think yeah.

Jordan:

I think this is really smart and, additionally, it sets you apart from other people who are surely pitching the person to be a guest on their podcast. I actually had someone DM me on Facebook I am garbage at checking my messages on Facebook, it's not a passion of mine and I had someone DM me and it was like the weekend and I was like I'll try to remember to get to this next week. And then the next day they sent me this long voicemail and I was like this is weird. And so I listened to the voice memo and they were so excited and passionate. Just hearing his voice and hearing his passion and just feeling his energy made me go. Oh, I wish I had messaged him back immediately. Honestly, if he didn't send the voice memo, I don't know if I would have remembered to do it.

Alex:

Yeah, and remind me never to send you a message on Facebook again. Sorry, I've done that.

Jordan:

I've told you I'm so bad at it.

Alex:

I'm like uh-oh, I'm like I've definitely sent you quite a few messages on there. That's why you don't respond.

Jordan:

I don't respond for like three or four days it.

Kevin:

It sort of reminds me of. I was trying to get a hold of a developer once who developed some technology that we wanted to do some sort of integration with or utilize in some way, and I had the hardest time I reached out to this person through email, through. This was a while ago. So Twitter all these different ways tried to reach out to this person, never got a response, and everything that I saw posted online was that this person doesn't respond to anybody. Like, don't take it personally, they're just a bit just removed. They do great work here, but they're very hard to get in contact with.

Kevin:

And finally, what I found was the nice thing about Twitter is it shows you everyone who follows them, and so I started reaching out to them individually to figure out have you ever made personal contact with this person? And finally, one of the people who I knew from that list wrote back and said yes, I actually know this person personally. And I was like fantastic, can you send them a message? Can you do some sort of warm introduction or something? And within five minutes of me, asking them that they had written an email. And then I got an email back from the developer, like with the other person CC'd and said, like you know, so-and-so, said you're a good guy, what's up, what can I help you with? I'm like, oh my gosh, they're just. You know, we're very popular or just very closed off. I don't know what the story was, but it just like in order to get in contact with that person, you needed a warm connection, and so that was a strategy. I used just that one time and it worked.

Jordan:

All right, so we talked about what to do when pitching your podcast to guests. Maybe some tips and tricks for that, but what are some things that you have seen? Some common mistakes that you have seen podcasters do when pitching their podcast All right.

Kevin:

So this just happened last week or the week before. There was somebody who pitched me to come on their podcast. But what their podcast was about actually was something I could do, but I'm not the best at it. And I know somebody who's actually really good at it and that's Tom, my business partner. He's really good at telling kind of the origin stories of our business and getting entrepreneurs excited and and all that kind of stuff.

Kevin:

I'm a little bit more like podcast specific right, like I'd be a good guest if you want to talk about podcasting, but if you want to talk about business at a higher level, tom is better at that than I am. And so I said you know, actually Tom would be the person that you want to do. And then they wanted to figure out how to get in touch with Tom, helped them do that, gave him Tom's email address, and then they went like one step too far, which was thank you, can you send an introduction email? And like I couldn't do that because I didn't, I didn't know them. Like how do I introduce this person? Like we've only exchanged like three messages at this point.

Kevin:

But I felt like that was a bit of a mistake, like they just went a little bit too far, like it didn't offend me or whatever, but I did have to then write back and just let him know like I'm sorry I can't introduce you because I don't know you, but Tom is a really nice guy and if you pitch him the same way that you pitched me, I'm sure he'll be responsive. So I had to leave it at that point. But I do think there's a point at which you can go too far. When you're asking people for favors, like connecting them with other people or, you know, maybe not taking like no for no, or I don't know, there's probably nice ways to say, hey, can I follow up with you at a future date, that wouldn't be a mistake. But pestering them after they've said no might be another mistake. But I'm sure Alex has some real practical advice besides just my recent experience.

Alex:

I got a good story here too. This is with Seth Godin. You all heard of Seth Godin before, so I had my podcast and it went really well. And this was years later and I'm back and I got really into sending like video pitches. So I sent him a video pitch. He responded never send me a video ever again. And then he said but reach out in four months and I'll come back on your podcast. And I was like whew, that's a warning shot, right.

Alex:

I later find out like he's written posts about like I don't like audio, like when someone's trying to ask me a question, I don't like video. I want to be written so that I can, at my own time, in my own energy, I can respond. I just didn't do enough research. So reaching out the way that people like to be reached out is important and, to Kevin's point, overstepping is. It's a huge problem. And actually, if you would have made the introduction to Tom because you all know each other Tom might have walked over to your office and said hey, kevin, is this guy a good guy? And you'd be like I don't know. Tom probably would have said no, he would have had a better shot reaching out directly himself versus you saying I don't really know him, he just asked me to make an introduction. Like that doesn't help anybody and so you have to be really careful with that stuff.

Alex:

The number one thing I find that actually that people get wrong is anything that's long-winded. If it's a copy video, however it is. If it's just like feeling like I'm reading someone's book report, I'm like man, like okay, you want me to be a guest on your podcast, I think I get that, but my goodness, like I don't need to know, like what microphone to use to show up with this. Make sure I'm in a quiet environment. Like we haven't even gotten that far yet and some people just want to feel like they're organized and want you to see that, but I don't think that's the place for it. The best advice is to keep it shorter and not be so long winded with our outreach to people.

Jordan:

And also have it a little bit more personalized. I'm not just talking about when you get that email and it's like hi, jordan, I listened to Dreamful and I especially loved this episode. I would like you to interview this author and my show's not an interview show. So if they had listened they would know that's not an interview show. Right, setting that aside, those drive me absolutely bonkers. Like just just listen to one episode. But also going with the personalization.

Jordan:

There's so much AI and spam going around right now where people are just like cold emailing, cold emailing that if an email looks like it was written by a bot, it goes immediately to trash. I will not read it. So making sure that your pitch is like more, maybe a little bit more casual, a little bit more human and in your voice, in your tone, goes a long way, like along with it being shorter and everything like that, I mean it. Just if you personally write it out and it's not just this like template thing that you copy and paste it off the internet, you are raising the odds that you're going to land the guest.

Alex:

Yeah, whenever hosts has asked me to come on the show and they use like an AI. One AI has like, different flavors, right, the flavor right now is explaining to you who it's emailing what you do. So it's like hey, alex, I'd love for you to come on my podcast. You created Podmatch, a service that connects podcast guests and friends. I'm like I did and I know what I do, and it's like one after another, they all come through. I'm like thank you for reminding me what I do.

Alex:

I just totally're missing is a meaningful request, which is like a real request saying hey, I want you to be a guest on my show. That's a request. A meaningful request is giving more to that. I want you to be a guest to talk to me about the technical side of podcasting. I would have reached out to Tom, but I don't want the entrepreneurship story. Kevin, I want to really talk about the podcasting element of it. Would you be interested in coming on my show to talk about that? Like when you kind of point it that way, it's like okay, this person understands what I do. They understand about business partner, right, like it adds a layer that makes it beyond just a request and meaningful request. But I get a lot of people like hosts ask me on their show and they never actually have a clear ask. I'm like I'm not really sure what you want Congratulations. Do you want me to listen and review the view, the show, like, what are we doing here? So it's important to make it very clear.

Kevin:

Yeah, well, and then it just feels like a bigger task, right, like I've agreed to something that I don't really know what I agreed to, and so that just feels bigger. It feels like, oh, now I've got to help them kind of figure out how to make a compelling episode as opposed to no, they were very specific, they know exactly what they want, and here's the part that I play in it. That doesn't feel that big of a deal, right? Can I give them 30 minutes for that? They seem to be on point. I'm just stepping in for 30 minutes. Yeah, I'll tell you, it feels a little bit like pet peeves that we can share. My pet peeve when receiving a guest request is if it has a Calendly link in it.

Jordan:

Really.

Kevin:

So even if they write a great request to come be on their show and then they say, like, if you can do it, here's a link to my Calendly where you can schedule it To me, that feels like they're saying I want you to do me this favor to come be on my show. And to Alex's point earlier, this should be mutual, like I'm doing them a favor, they're doing me a favor, so I get that. But it does feel very much like they're immediately asking for me to do it at their convenience. So here's my availability. You slot in wherever you can and I don't like that.

Alex:

So I used to be the guy who sent the calendar and I did that with Adam Curry, who just stopped responding. When I sent the calendar and his next episode of his show that he does with his wife, he said believe it or not, I got this pitch from this guy named Alex Sanfilippo. He goes what a jerk. He sent me his calendar in it and just like, went off on it and she's like I think you're just being old school hun or something like along those lines.

Alex:

I emailed him back because I've been listening to his podcast. I was like, so sorry. I'm like I was just trying to make it easy for you. I'm like if you just give me a few dates and times that work for you, I will move my schedule around. And then he sent me back something. He's like oh thanks, man, he goes and I'd love to get this scheduled. Do you want me to suggest some dates or do you want to suggest some? I can make it work. Either way is now what I do, and that's not in the initial pitch, that's after we've agreed that we're going to do it. But then I ask the guests, like what do you like? Or sometimes the host yeah, I've been. I'm in both seats.

Jordan:

And I always try can do it that way. I love that. Oh man, I really thought that you were going to be like both of you, but especially Kevin. I really thought that you were going to be the streamlined like don't make me go back and forth, I don't want to hit reply, just let me do it, get it done, cause that's how I am, like if someone sends me a pitch email and they include the Calendly link.

Kevin:

I'm like, thank God, I don't have to like talk to them again, I can just click this and get it on the schedule. Well, once in a while, just for fun, if somebody sends me a guest request. I have done this a few times. It never actually turned into a podcast interview, but I will write back immediately, like within two or three minutes of getting the email. If I catch it in time, I'll write back and I'll say absolutely available right now, let's get online. And then they'll write back like two hours later. Like so sorry, I missed that.

Jordan:

I just like well, I guess you missed your chance.

Alex:

That's kind of like you being mean, I don't know Like you're seriously. You mean you would do it. Like you would do it right then if they would.

Kevin:

I would do it in those couple instances. I would do it because here's the thing Like oftentimes, I don't know these people, and so do I want to go ahead and block off an hour on my calendar two weeks from now for something like. I don't know if you're actually going to show up, I don't know if it's worth my time, I don't know if it shows any good, but I'm actually free right now. Like I'm in between tasks. I don't have anything going for the next 30 minutes. You just caught me at a great time and so I'll fire back. Let's do it right now.

Alex:

I would also pretend like I didn't see your email for two hours.

Kevin:

Like haven't done enough research on this person, yet Let me jump off the outline real quick. I know we're getting a little long on time here, but, alex, I want to get your thoughts when we have you here, like, what do you think about some sort of agreements or contracts or something, these guest arrangements that sometimes people want you to sign before you come on their show?

Alex:

So the release form right.

Kevin:

Release form.

Alex:

There you go. Yeah, the hosts typically have them as the platform. I think that they're good as a safeguard. I don't know if it's ever saved anybody or hurt anybody or anything like that. I've had one on my show for years now and I've had one person ever say hey, I don't feel comfortable signing this. Which just let me do a little bit more research on them. I just wanted to be like why that's weird, and I looked around. Turns out they had done some sketchy things, stolen some money, and they just didn't want to be in any sort of contracts or anything like that. So we ended up not moving forward, which I felt protected from them. Okay, I missed this detail. This was like an actual FBI report on this individual, so I probably should have caught that the first time, but that never had a problem with To me.

Alex:

I don't really care the people that I have on my show. I've done enough research to know there's never going to be an issue For most of them. I'll put it in front of them if they want to sign it, fine. And the reason for that, I guess, is it's the platform. Right, you wouldn't go to a sports complex and not sign a waiver of some sort right Gotta protect the platform. I think it's really good for shows that maybe get into politics or get into some more debatable type things. Right, I'm talking about podcasting. It's not like it's anything that someone's later on going to be like. I don't want you to quote me about being a guest, right? I?

Alex:

don't foresee that happening. But someone is like hey, I'm really right wing, and then you have someone on later who's really left wing. They don't like they're going to be. Like, take forms, I sign them when I go on as a guest. I don't. I've never had a problem with it.

Kevin:

And so is that what the form is basically doing is it's basically saying that the content that we're recording together belongs to the show, and what we choose to do with it or not do with it is at our discretion. Is that basically correct?

Alex:

And a lot of them now protect the guest as well. So it's also like hey, this is also for you, that other people are not going to take this episode like it belongs to the show, the platform type of thing.

Jordan:

You know with like protecting your podcast. And your guest, david at no Stroke Podcast, wrote in and said love your podcasting tips, especially the one about skipping lackluster expert interviews. And he said after a few duds, I now tell guests the recording may appear as a full episode, bonus content or a brief snap cast of key soundbites. I love this Giving yourself permission to say you know what, if the interview is not good and if it's not serving my audience, I'm giving myself permission to let it go. And yeah, maybe we can only clip a couple 30 second things out of this, but that's what it's going to be.

Kevin:

You know, and I do like the idea of having that in writing.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Kevin:

It's nice to Alex's point, I've never signed one. I've been on a few podcasts. I've never signed one. I did have somebody asked me once to sign one and I said I don't sign them Not because I'm against them, though. It was just like literally I don't sign them. And they said that's fine, don't worry about it. And so we didn't. I'm okay with the idea, but even if you don't do a release form, I like the idea of communicating clearly, upfront that I'm going to do my best for this to be an amazing episode and I hope you're going to be proud of it and I'm going to be proud of it. But I can't promise that we're going to see what we get. Yeah, to me as a podcast host, we owe our listeners everything but we don't owe guest or potential guest anything yet.

Alex:

Yeah, and the thing is, if they show up with the wrong mindset, attitude, sharing the wrong stuff, it's better just not to have the episode get released, because if it doesn't serve the audience, then it's better for both of you. Really, right, they're the ones that trust you to be the gatekeeper of their ears. Oh, that's so good, right.

Alex:

So if it's not the right stuff, don't share it. I've had three episodes of my show in the last I don't know how many years now, but a lot of years but I had three that couldn't air, knowing that this is not going to help and as a person I'm naturally a bit of a people pleaser, so it's not super easy for me to do that but to, and I don't think it's actually helped the audience so I'm not going to use it. In all those cases I said if you'd like the audio, let me know and you can use it however you'd like to. But I just knew my platform wasn't a fit, and that happened three times. All three times are very uncomfortable for me, but sometimes the stuff just doesn't work. Even if you do all the research, you do it all right.

Kevin:

Sometimes it's just't imagine. In your case specifically, anyway, it's nothing to do with you being ugly or just being petty or anything. It's wanting to serve your audience first and looking out for the interests of both parties. Like, equally.

Kevin:

Like, I imagine, alex, just knowing you, if you had a guest on your show and you were amazing, let's just say you knocked it out of the park, you asked great questions and you followed their stories and all this kind of stuff, but at the end of the day you felt uncomfortable about the way that they came across, like you didn't think it put a positive light on them. I imagine you would do the same thing. Correct, and so it's not always one-sided, but yeah, we should have some confidence in that as podcasters, that this should be a win-win for everybody when you guess, and it should be fun, it should be something that you're excited and it just doesn't always work out for one reason or another and there's no finger pointing that's necessary. It can just be a hey, sometimes we hit it and sometimes we miss it. Let's just keep moving on and maintain the relationship and do the best you can.

Jordan:

Yeah, and it sucks when that happens for both parties, but you can pretty much ensure that that doesn't happen as long as you follow the tips that we have in this episode about finding the good guest and vetting them.

Kevin:

Yeah, we want to minimize that.

Jordan:

Yeah, you're going to minimize it, so definitely take note and you shouldn't have to deal with that. It's time for Sound Off, a segment where we read your family messages. So, alex, do you want to kick us off with a message from Gainesville, florida?

Alex:

Sure, gainesville, florida, is the person's name, I believe, or it might be their location.

Jordan:

I'm just kidding, I know it's a location.

Alex:

Hey team, love the podcast. I'm getting airs in all the ways I try to play my podcast and or when I go to download it all through Apple podcast or any other users saying the same thing.

Jordan:

I have seen this come up a couple times and what it usually is is if I'm in an area with bad cellular data or I just need to restart my iPhone I don't know what it is Every now and then you just get like the loading thing and it won't actually play.

Kevin:

I can tell you this is somebody runs a hosting provider. It's not a widespread issue, because if any of our podcasts, for whatever reason, are not playing through an app as popular as Apple podcasts at scale Like, we would hear about that within seconds, and so it is something with your specific configuration and so try force, like restarting the app, like restart your phone, maybe switch networks or something like that. But my guess is my strong hunch based of 15 plus years of doing this is it's something going on on your device specifically.

Alex:

Yeah, apple in general. They've been letting out a lot of updates, and so Apple podcasts have been updated a number of times. So if you have one that's slightly outdated you don't have automatic update on, you need to go update it, cause at some point it's. I don't know why, how it chooses, but it just won't load some podcasts, so you have to just go into the app store and do one of the updates.

Jordan:

Ah, that's a good tip too. All right, Fletch, from the Mango Times. Switching to Buzzsprout has been a game changer. Combined with the blog, newsletter and podcast, you've reopened the world of podcasting with killer tools and ideas, Thanks. Thank you, Fletch. Your question is my personal website, nearly 30 years old, is still my main brand hub. I host each episode on Buzzsprout, then repost the same show notes on Squarespace. Most people don't listen on the site. It's just an easy landing spot for newcomers who aren't podcast savvy. Should I keep mirroring full show notes in both places or focus on Buzzsprout and leave only a basic episode page on Squarespace?

Kevin:

I think it comes down to efficiency. I don't think there's not a right or wrong here. It's kind of like what you like and how much time you have, cross posting, you know, buzzsprout is going to do it for you automatically on the Buzzsprout site that we give you, and then if you have the time and energy and you like reposting on your Squarespace site, nothing wrong with that. But if you're getting to the point where it's just feeling like extra work every week and I don't love it, I don't think you're probably getting a huge benefit from it. You're not going to get like a huge SEO boost from it or anything like that, and so I would say I'd put it in the category of not necessary. But if it does something for you that you like, nothing wrong with it either.

Jordan:

I have Squarespace and I actually use the Buzzsprout embed player and I use it the separate player for each episode. And it's nice because I just plug in that embed player code into Squarespace. And what I love about it is that every time I publish a new episode, it will automatically populate that episode into Squarespace with the full show notes. So I don't do anything and my show notes are there on my website. So that's something that you could consider doing as well, unless you want to have a separate web page for every single episode. But I don't know. I don't know if that's really necessary. You could also have the multiple episodes in one player at the top and then do the separate one below that too on your Squarespace site. That's a little hack you could do in case you want people to be able to scroll through all the different episodes.

Kevin:

Jordan, with all the options, so many options Just tell me which one to do.

Jordan:

Just tell me, I got to overcomplicate it.

Kevin:

I know you're like Baskin Robbins 32 flavors of podcasts. Embedding Jared from hey Chaplain, the police wellness podcast, wrote in because Alban in our last episode said which podcasts have been most influential for you. Well, jared said it's the history of Rome, which started in 2007. It was a big move for me moving from radio to podcasts. I wonder, is that as a podcaster or was that as a podcast listener? But I agree there was something. There was some podcast episode that I listened to that like I never went back to talk radio after that. I used to be a big talk radio fan, but as soon as I started getting podcasts and then like I can control what I listened to on demand it wasn't based on the time of day that I was in the car I never went back and so it sounds like history of Rome was that show for him?

Jordan:

I think I wonder if this podcast is the source of that viral thing of how men think about the Roman empire at least once a day. Have you heard of that?

Kevin:

I don't like that meme because it doesn't make me. It makes me feel like less of a man, because I don't think about the Roman empire ever.

Alex:

Yeah, I'm right there with you, kevin. So thank you for saying that, cause I was like, oh, am I the one?

Kevin:

I know I'm being super vulnerable right now, but I guess I'm not much of a man because I never think about it.

Jordan:

I mean it was on TikTok, so it must be true.

Alex:

Derek, producer of Intentional Teaching, when it comes to a podcast that was influential, talks about Dolly Parton's America, which I've never heard of, and Derek points out that it's not like a celebrity podcast.

Jordan:

Yeah, alex, you're in the same boat as us, because in our quick cast last week we were like I've never listened to Dolly Parton's America and so we're kind of getting shamed here. So I'm glad you're in the shame boat with us.

Kevin:

Alban played a game with us where there was like hit or flop or something, oh yeah, and I called it a flop and people didn't like that and it won a bunch of awards and so somehow I missed this podcast. But I'm going to have to listen to it now and I'll probably come back and say it was awesome.

Alex:

So Derek pointed out a second podcast, actually, uh, the memory palace. But the interesting thing that I like about this is it says the Derek said it's the one podcast I listened to at one X speed. So it's gotta be a challenge Either someone that is like talking really fast, or it's a lot of information, or it's really really good, so I'm. That makes me interested in checking out the Memory Palace.

Kevin:

I have never found a podcast that was so good. I had to slow it down to 1x.

Alex:

I mean 1x speed is not slowing it down. That's like as prescribed.

Kevin:

Trust me, kevin, that's slowing it down. It is All right, derek, challenge accepted. I will listen to the Memory Palace and we will see at what speed I report back to you with.

Jordan:

That is really funny, that that is like hey, you can listen to this podcast at 1x speed.

Alex:

It's like ooh, really, I'm in a shirt that says people listen to my podcast at 1x speed. I think that that would be like a killer shirt.

Jordan:

Okay, podcast movement, make it happen.

Kevin:

Oh my gosh, here's a side effect. There's a lot of people who I listen to their podcast every single week and then I only see him once or twice a year at podcast conferences. And the first thought I have is you're drunk because they're talking so slow. I'm like, how much have you had to drink? And they're like it's nine in the morning, kevin haven't had anything to drink. I'm like why are you talking so slow? And it's just because I'm always used to hearing them at. You know, 1.75 X.

Alex:

So I used to. I got to share this because I think this will, this will get cut out for sure. But I used to when I was doing like prepping for my guests I was going to bring on. I'd want to listen to a bunch of their content. So I'd listen to it at like two and three x speed. But then when we get to the green room, I feel like I'm like whoa, you talk slow. No, I've been listening them on fast forward and that's not a good time, painful as that is for me, so I can be prepared for their actual cadence.

Kevin:

How about that Bonus tip?

Jordan:

Bonus tip. All right, so on our next main episode in two weeks, we will discuss podcast equipment and we want to know what podcast gear do you recommend. So, to send in your responses, tap the Texas show link in the show notes and we will work it into the next episode. Alex, thank you so much again for joining us, and to all of you, thanks for listening and keep podcasting. Here's the deal. Last time I was in Jacksonville, we did an escape room together and I feel like all these escape rooms that I've been doing recently has, like finally really paid off.

Kevin:

Yeah, you knew it would at some point.

Jordan:

At some point and it came sooner than I thought my family and I we went on a trip to Los Angeles and unfortunately our plane landed at like nine 30 in the morning and I couldn't check into our Airbnb until like 4 PM and we're not just going to like chill at the airport all day long. And so I looked up one of those like luggage storage places and I found one that had like a really nice website, really nice app, and it was around the corner from Hollywood, the Hollywood Boulevard, and so we go to this place and I think it's a luggage rental like shop.

Kevin:

Wait, not a luggage rental, a luggage storage.

Jordan:

Yeah, sorry Like yeah, like you rent a storage spot, right? Yeah, and it's actually a hostel. It's like bunk beds everywhere and it's like a bunch of dudes in their 20s who, like you know, smell a little bit. You know what I'm talking about I'm catching the vibe.

Kevin:

I've never been to a hostel.

Jordan:

Yeah, it's like very hippie, I don't know. Yeah, it's like very hippie, I don't know.

Alex:

They think about Rome every day. For sure.

Jordan:

Oh for sure, Every day Anyway. So the guy like he didn't seem to know what I was talking about at first, when I was like hey, I bought storage for our luggage. And he was just like oh yeah, uh yeah, just go ahead and like take a photo of your luggage before I put it in. And I was like that's kind of weird. And so I took a picture of our luggage and he was like, all right, I'll see you later. And I was like okay, and so I had the app and it had like lots of great reviews. I was like this is probably fine.

Jordan:

And he was supposed to text me like some information about it and he just never did. But I was so busy with my family that I didn't think about it. And so at the end of the day, it's finally time for us to go to our Airbnb. And so I call the Lyft and we go back to this hostel and the door is locked and there's like no one in there and I was like that doesn't feel right and all of our stuff's in there, everything, because we just like we're walking around and sightseeing and I was just like this cannot be happening. Luckily, the door was locked with a code and I remembered the code from like earlier and so I punched it in and we got into the hostel.

Kevin:

Wait, did they give you a code earlier, or did you just like watch them?

Jordan:

It was like a code earlier, but I wasn't sure if it was like a one-time thing. Luckily it wasn't, and so I got in and there's like no one around to help. There's like a couple dudes sleeping in like one of the bunks down the thing and so I got to find our luggage.

Jordan:

I don't see anyone around the guy that was there initially wasn't around and I've got my kids and my husband with me. We go back further in the hostel and I see these cabinets all with like locks on them and they're all numbered and I was like okay, these must be the storage cabinets, but which one's mine? And so this is where the escape room knowledge kind of comes into play. I had to like walk around the hostel and I'm looking at all these like notepads and papers. I'm looking on like a desk. I don't see anything. And then I see a scrap piece of like yellow notepad paper and it has my name written on it and it says seven and 12. I'm like great, I know what lockers I'm in, I'm seven and 12. And so I go and I find them and like there's zip ties shut and I'm like I need something to cut these out. And so I walk around and I find a knife in the kitchen and I like go and I cut our luggage out and like there was no one there.

Kevin:

There was no one there to like help us. Was that your luggage when you opened seven and 12?

Jordan:

Yes, it was our luggage, and so I got it out and we got in our lift, thank goodness Cause you know they leave after like five minutes if you're not there.

Kevin:

You're lucky because, alex, I don't know if you know this, but the last time Jordan and I were in an escape room together, one of our clues was a set of wire cutters.

Jordan:

Yeah.

Kevin:

And I was like, oh, I felt a wire earlier behind this painting thing and I pulled the wire out and Alban's like well, I'm going to cut it. And Jordan's like yeah, cut it. And so we cut it. And then the lights go out in the room. We cut a live wire and they come over the speaker. They wires coming out of walls and we're like sorry. Well then, don't give us wire cutters jordan.

Alex:

I like there's actually even a timer in this, like it was totally an escape room, like because the escape rooms are like you've got this much time, like you had five minutes. Sure it was in the form of a lift driver, lifts pulling.

Jordan:

It's the same thing, though I'm sure I'm incriminating myself right now like I don't know if I broke any laws or not, but I stole my own stuff.

Kevin:

So I don't think there's breaking and entering in a hostel Again. I've never been to a hostel, but I feel like it's kind of like a it's it's like open, right yeah.

Jordan:

But just thinking about it, like I could have stolen everyone's luggage, but I didn't. I only took mine. I don't want to offend any California, so I think you're fine, it's probably fine, I'm across state lines. Anyway, I was super thankful for all of our escape room trainings that we've had. It came in handy.

Kevin:

You got to put in the work. You never know when you're going to need it.

Jordan:

Yeah.

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Alban Brooke

Host
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Jordan Blair

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Kevin Finn

Host

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