How To Stand Out In A Crowded Podcast Niche

We break down why “crowded” is usually a clarity problem, not a competition problem, then map the difference between a podcast category and a real niche. 

We also study five popular business story shows to prove how audience, format, tone, and payoff make similar topics feel completely different! 

Read Jordan's mention in the WSJ: Why People Who Listen To Podcasts Are Suddenly Feeling Left Out

Topics discussed:

• Defining category versus niche through audience, format, tone, and promise 
• Using promise and payoff to stop sounding generic 
• Reframing "oversaturation" as "demand" and "popularity" 
• What makes shows fade into the background, from unclear positioning to recycled guest circuits 
• Case study breakdowns of business story podcasts and how each one niches down 
• Practical steps to write down and refine your niche over time

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Transcript

Video Podcasts Make Listeners Feel Left Out

Alban 0:00

Breaking news from the Wall Street Journal. Why people who listen to podcasts are suddenly feeling left out. And it starts, Jordan Blair was behind the wheel and she realized she picked the wrong podcast to listen to. Today we're touching down in the 70s to talk about Chippendales. Not these guys, these guys, whose name strangely comes from this guy. What? Harvey Gillian, host of Killer Stories, said in the episode intro. Who? What? Blair recalled thinking. Then she remembered Killer Stories had just begun offering a video version. Then I realized this was not going to be any context, and I was going to be annoyed, said Blair, a 35-year-old from Idaho. And then this article goes on, has a very beautiful picture, Jordan. Has a lot of nice anecdotes about people who listen to podcasts being left out when people switch to primary video first.

Kevin 0:52

I was just feeling left out, just reading that article without being able to see some of the context of like the pictures and stuff that are in it.

Jordan 0:59

Yeah, the punctuation. Yeah.

Alban 1:01

That was well, you're you're also missing out on some really nice ads on the side of the Wall Street Journal. Oh no, I did click through.

Kevin 1:08

Well, uh Jordan was nice enough to screenshot it for us, so I didn't have to fight all the ads away myself or buy the subscription version to read the article.

Jordan 1:15

Yeah.

Kevin 1:16

Which I probably just outed you as like a uh I don't know. It's probably some sort of crime to screenshot copyrighted like articles.

Alban 1:23

ChatGBT scraped every article on the web, got away with it. But if you take a screenshot of a Wall Street Journal post that you were in busted. Yeah.

Jordan 1:32

You know what's crazy about that is I thought that that was just like an internet thing. And so I wasn't expecting it to be printed. And it was printed in Saturday and Sunday's edition on the front page. Oh, really?

Alban 1:44

You were on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. Did you get you get a copy?

Jordan 1:47

I had to buy three because my aunt and my mom wanted a copy, and it was $11 a pop. Whoa. They're so expensive. I literally called all of the grocery stores, all of like the pharmacies, all of the Barnes and Nobles, and like booksellers in the area. Apparently, in Boise, you cannot buy a copy of the Wall Street Journal. So I had to order it.

Alban 2:09

I would have one. I want us to get one and uh frame it and put it up in the office. That's cool.

Kevin 2:14

Yeah. Can you order them like directly from the Wall Street Journal website so they come like rolled up, not folded, like a typical newspaper?

Jordan 2:20

Yeah, you can't. I mean, I think that's what I did.

Kevin 2:23

Oh, okay.

Jordan 2:24

I bought three physical print copies of it. But if you buy it framed, it's $330.

Alban 2:30

So worth it.

Jordan 2:31

No, it's not.

Alban 2:32

We we can frame it ourselves. We can find uh we can get a nice frame. We'll go to Michael's.

Jordan 2:37

Well, here's the thing is it's at the very bottom. So it's not, it's not like the main story or anything like that, but like my name is on the front page, but it's at the it's at the bottom. There's like a little article there, and then my picture's on the inside of the main on a booklet or whatever they call it. I don't know what the word is.

Alban 2:52

So so how did the Wall Street Journal find you?

Jordan 2:54

Reddit.

Alban 2:55

Reddit.

Jordan 2:55

It was funny. I was actually talking to, I believe this was the conversation that I had with Stephanie Fuccio, who's uh a listener of this podcast. Uh we were talking about video podcasting and stuff, and the standards editor at Wall Street Journal reached out to me on LinkedIn and he was like, Hey, I wrote your uh comment on Reddit. I want to talk to you.

Alban 3:15

So that's awesome.

Jordan 3:17

Kind of weird, but it's uh it's kind of cool.

Alban 3:19

Well, congratulations, Jordan.

Kevin 3:20

There's lots of good quotes in here. We can drop a link to the article, but are people gonna have to pay to read it?

Category Vs Niche Explained Simply

Jordan 3:25

Probably, unless you, you know, you know, there's ways around it. I don't know. Money well spent. Just kidding. Welcome back to Buzzcast, the podcast about all things podcasting from the people at Buzzprout. So today we're going to be covering how to stand out in a crowded niche. And I think one of the first things that we really need to break down is the difference between a category and a niche.

Alban 3:55

I thought we were gonna start talking about the difference between a niche and a niche because there's a lot of debate about the correct pronunciation when we go to the podcasting conferences.

Jordan 4:05

How do you guys say it? Because I say niche.

Alban 4:07

I say niche. I say niche. Unless I'm talking about like a little cabinetry of knickknacks in my kitchen.

Jordan 4:13

It's a niche.

Alban 4:13

Yeah, Jordan, I think that's a great point. It's pretty common you talk to somebody and they're like, oh, I'm gonna do a business podcast. But you know the business niche is it's way oversaturated. I guess actually I say niche. Or they just say there's so many, you know, this niche is way oversaturated. And I think it mostly stems from kind of a misunderstanding of what the idea of a niche is supposed to be, or even what, you know, how you position a podcast. And I hope at the end of this, when we talk through it, people feel empowered to go into what they think is oversaturated and come out with a podcast that's unique and has a unique reason for people to listen to it.

Jordan 4:57

The difference between a niche and a category. So a category is like the overarching bucket that your podcast goes into, such as like business or parenting or true crime, things like that. And the niche is a lot narrower. So this talks about like the listener that you're targeting, who are you trying to talk to? It's the format of your podcast. Is it solo? Is it interview, docustyle, things like that? Um, also the tone of your podcast. Are you serious? Are you empathetic? Are you kind of irreverent or comedic? And then also the promise of your podcast. I feel like the promise and the payoff is a little bit harder to explain. It's basically what you're guaranteeing your listeners are going to get out of your episode by the end of it or what you want them to take away from the episode. Would you say that's right?

Alban 5:44

Yeah. I mean, think about this podcast. We're in this category, which it's not the most popular category, but it's podcasts about the podcasting industry. And if we just were doing a podcast about podcasting, you know, we're in a very crowded category. Um, but when we say the listener is probably on Buzzprouted, the format is about 45 minutes, and there's the three of us, it's consistent hosts. The tone is a bit silly, we don't take ourselves too seriously. We do kind of go off topic a little bit. And the promise and payoff is if you're an indie podcaster, you should be aware of what's happening in the industry without being overwhelmed. And when we go into that much detail, I think it becomes pretty clear why you'd listen to us versus the feed or versus you know, pod news weekly review. Those are just different shows. And if you are able to describe the niche, then I think listeners they have a way of knowing, oh, this is the podcast for me. I want to listen to this.

Kevin 6:44

You know, we used to give talks at conferences like for software builders. We don't only teach about podcasting. Sometimes we teach, we go to business conferences and teach about like getting into the software business. And one of the principles that we talk about there is the same thing, like defining your niche in software. And a principle that we talk people through is like defining sort of the promise of the software, sort of like the promise of the podcasting that you guys are talking about, and like going as far as you need to go to make sure that it is unique. So it's fine to say like we want to provide world-class software that's super usable and friendly and helps people get their podcast out to the world. But that's really not going to be unique. Like we have competitors that are doing the same thing. So, like, like how far can you go, you know, by doing X, Y, and Z or from a Floridian's experience with one person who's, you know, from Pacific Northwest, like as far as you need to go to be able to say, like, that's unique, but then we have to deliver on that. So like there's nothing unique about us being from Florida or the Pacific Northwest. Like, so we want to find the things that make us unique as a software company, and that's what we're trying to help people do at those software conferences. And it's the same thing in podcasting. You want to try to define, you know, you want to be a business podcast, but you know, delivered with comedy and unique guests from all around the world. Like, okay, I'm sure there's tons of business podcasts, but how many of them actually put a funny spin on business principles? And then how many of them also interview people like internationally?

Jordan 8:09

Yeah.

Kevin 8:10

Now you've just gone from a category that maybe has 20,000 shows in it to a category that maybe has a hundred or less shows, maybe even 50. And then you could introduce something else. And what else could you do? Oh, and we do, you know, fun business trivia or something like that. Or brain teasers or something like that. Like whatever it is. Like, how far do you need to go to make your niche like a reasonable size that you can say, hey, if that sounds like something that you would enjoy, then we're the show for you.

Jordan 8:35

What I really like about what you're saying is that it's it's almost like an exercise. Like it doesn't have to be what we write in our podcast description. You know, it wouldn't make sense for us to be like, this is two guys in Florida and a girl in Idaho, and we're from Buzzsprout, and like we believe in this and this and this, and we're trying to talk to listeners who this, this, this. Like that doesn't have to be in your podcast description, but it can drive the content that you're creating and it kind of like gives you focus on what you're trying to accomplish with your podcast.

Kevin 9:06

Right.

Jordan 9:06

I also think that it's sort of a reframing of like your mindset too, especially if you're if you're focused on one target audience or what you want them to get out of it or what you're trying to stick to with your podcast. And additionally, I love reframing, I do this all the time. I love reframing the idea of like competition versus community, because a lot of times, like you get into these big spaces, like, oh my gosh, there's so much competition. And really, it's a big community. And if you, if you reframe this kind of stuff, it's gonna feel a lot less scary to go into these bigger categories because instead of things looking like overcrowded or oversaturated, it's popular, it's in demand. Like there's a reason why there's so many people here because they all love this topic and there's a lot of listeners that love this topic too. And I think that that can make it a little less scary if you're trying to start getting into a big category, or you know, if you're in the trenches of like trying to break through a big category too, and you're kind of spinning your wheels, like don't get disheartened just because you're in a big category.

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Alban 10:09

Yeah. So if you find yourself in a large category, obviously one of the positives is lots of people already like this category. They're already listening, but we're still trying to figure out how do we make sure we don't fade into the crowd. So, like Kevin said, the more specific you can get, the better, because then you're niching down, you're finding a smaller and smaller group, and you're positioning yourself in a way where you are unique. And so what makes you fade into the background? And Jordan, you put out this great list, unclear audience, no real point of view, weak promise, AI language, copying big show formats, generic guests and episodes. And I leave that one for last because how many times have you listened now to these big interview shows? And they're just recycling like the same guests. Like somebody writes a book, they get on the big podcast interview circuit, and you just see them pop up in three or four of your feeds. And by the end of it, you're like, I've already heard this guy. Like, I've heard him pitch the book. I even bought the book, but at some point you're like, I don't need to hear the same interview again.

Five Business Story Shows Compared

Jordan 11:46

I'm literally experiencing this right now because podcasts have taken on the mantle of like the late night show host, where there's like a circuit that you go through if you're promoting something. And uh there's like a brand new documentary out called S4, and it's with like Bob Lazar. And so Bob Lazar and this like filmmaker are off on all of these podcasts. They're on literally every single podcast I listen to. And it's like a two-hour episode of like them rehashing the exact same stuff and talking about the documentary. And I'm just like, uh.

Alban 12:17

And there's interviewers who they just are not doing a ton of work, you could tell, because they're like, oh, tell me about the exact same story I just heard you tell on a different podcast. Then they've gone and heard it. They go, Oh, that's a good story. Let's make sure we get our version of it, which is the same story just with a different interviewer asking it. All right. So yesterday, when Jordan and I talked about this, one of the things, Kevin, that I thought would be really fun, we picked out what seems like a crowded category and found five podcasts which you can describe the same way with the same broad strokes. And then we kind of did a deep dive into how are these shows actually different? How did they niche down? And how did they come up with something that was unique? Okay. Do I have a part to play in this? Uh, you do running commentary feedback, and I've even got a game for you. Okay.

Jordan 13:06

Okay, Alban. So you took the topic of business.

Alban 13:11

I went even a little tighter. I went business stories. So I don't want current event business. These aren't new shows. I went and just was like, you know, who tells the stories of businesses and how are these different? And I went down the top list and picked out ones I specifically had already listened to. How I built this with Guy Roz, acquired founders, business wars, and masters of scale. And these are all shows that you could describe as they're in a very crowded category. They're telling the same stories of businesses. And all of them could talk about similar businesses. But then when I start pulling them apart by topic, audience, format, tone, and payoff kind of that promise, they start looking very different. Yes. So how I built this, you've got Guy Ross interviewing founders for about 45 minutes. And it's pretty much, if you go through these episodes, it's very driven by the founder's story. They're personal, they're emotional. You know, like how did you do X? And it's a lot of, oh, here's a fun anecdote, but also like a tough moment where we thought the business was going to fail. I'm really thinking about uh we listened to that one about uh Southwest, the founder of Southwest. Sure. Yeah. And you're just hearing so much of the here's what the internal state was like for me as I went through, you know, all the up and ups and downs. And there's not a lot about strategy. They don't they sometimes will reference competition, but it's pretty much driven by the person.

Kevin 14:48

Yeah. And and I would add to that, I think all of my favorite episodes of how I built this anyway, they're like you said, maybe 45 minutes, but there's two, three like really deep stories that they jump into. You know, here's where the business almost failed. Here's how we got the capital to stay alive, here's a moment where everything changed, you know, an unlock for the business. And like those three things will be like 10 minutes each. It's like 30 minutes of content. And then all the rest of it, like they move pretty quickly just to get to the next deep story. And then they go really deep. And then they move pretty quickly, and then they're like you're 10 years later, they get to another big event.

Alban 15:23

Yeah.

Kevin 15:24

So they cover like, you know, 20, 30 years of business in 45 minutes, but it's really just centered around these like massively deep and entertaining and super interesting stories.

Alban 15:34

Yeah. I think that's a really good point that they're really picking out two, three deep stories that kind of are like there's the scaffolding of the whole business, but with two or three, okay, these are 10, 15 minutes, they hook you. Yep. You hear it, the dramatic music kicks in. Yep.

Jordan 15:52

It's so funny because I haven't listened to how I built this. So my assumption was this is step by step how I built this business. And now I'm hearing there's actually a lot more story and emotion driving these episodes. And they're kind of skipping over the instructional version and just jumping into like when things got really tough, like when situations got sticky, and then like sort of talking through how it resolved, whether it be like organically or you know, they took they had to make hard decisions or whatever it is.

Alban 16:22

Yeah.

Jordan 16:22

And I think that's really cool.

Alban 16:24

Yeah. Of all of these, how I built this, one, the name is a great name, but it isn't perfectly describing, you know, I think your point is right. It's not step-by-step frameworks, it's these stories. It's also the one that of these five feels the most like Buzzcast, that we end up being pretty story driven. And hey, here's the internal emotional state of what it's like to be a creator and how you work through it. A very different show is acquired. So Ben and David, two hosts, they're doing the deepest dive you can get. It's like they're doing hardcore history about businesses. Four-hour episodes, they're long, they're detailed, they're very analytical. They're often talking about like, here's why the business worked, and it's not just personality of the founder. First episode of theirs I ever listened to is about, I think, Google Maps. And I had no idea. You know, I'm thinking it's gonna be like, oh, Google Maps, they launched in this year, and here's what they did. And it's like seven iterations of all the people who kind of culminate in starting Google Maps and how each of them were pieces of different acquisitions. And it's just so detailed, it's so well researched that you feel like I just got an audio book that just felt a bit more conversational than normal.

Kevin 17:43

Yes. I think if I had to describe acquired in my own terms as succinctly as possible, I would say it's like somebody wrote a full business book. Like we can just take the example that you just used of like Google Maps, how it was made, whatever, and there's like a thousand-page book on this subject, then acquired is the Cliffs Notes version of that. What's the new version of it? Spark notes. People use SparkNotes and Cliffs Notes. It is still long, but it is all the detail. It's like all the takeaways. Sometimes I have a hard time. I'm not saying it's not a good podcast. It is a good podcast, but I have a hard time listening to it because I have to be in the right mood. It's not necessarily like a relaxing or enjoyable listen. It's an educational listen. Like I feel like I'm in college lecture mode, right? And I get annoyed if I just zone out for two or three exits down the highway. And then I'm like, oh, I just missed all of that. And then, like, you know, like I gotta like back up. But it really is uh an educational take on it, as opposed to like how I built this, still business lessons and practical stuff that you can take, but in a much more entertaining format. Yeah. And a light listen.

Jordan 18:47

You know what I like about how Acquired is doing this is they're kind of going against the grain of everything that you learn you need to do to make your podcast successful. You know, they take forever to release an episode. And when they do, it's just like this like huge, clunky mess of a podcast episode. You know what I mean? Like it's just dense, and then it's just like this brick lays down, and then like you wait a few more months for it. And I think that that's a really good example of a podcast that is finding their own way in a very broad category. I mean, especially with the format.

Alban 19:20

Yeah. Uh so thirds I looked at was founders. David Senra does the show by himself, maybe 40, 90 minutes. I think he's now doing another podcast where he does do interviews, but all of them are pretty much built from a biography. And he takes this podcast so seriously. I've heard him give advice on how to start a podcast. And one of the things he says is like, take it a hundred times more seriously than you're taking it. Lock in. And if you listen to him, it's just like the most serious you could take a podcast. And so it's either very your type or it's not your type and it's not your style. I mean, it's often about like, here's the mindsets of a founder, here's the habits of a founder, here's the principles that they embodied. There's less of the storytelling and less of the conversation. It feels like this is somebody who just read eight books about John D. Rockefeller, and now I'm telling you what it was like to be him and exactly what he was doing so that you can do the same. It's just like if you're going to listen to us, you need to have a level of intensity that is a bit higher. And so it fits perfectly for some. And for other people, they hear it and they're three minutes in and they go, This isn't for me. And I think that is one of the hallmarks of a successful show, is that pretty quickly people are opting in really hard or opting out just as quickly.

Jordan 20:52

Yeah.

Kevin 20:53

I like the unique spin on it. This has never, I've never listened to an episode of this. I've just never caught my attention. I think in general, I'm a little bit skeptical of uh things like this. Like, I prefer if if people are still living anyway, like why not have them on the show? Why not have them be a part of telling their own story? I don't necessarily love like we're just gonna do a whole bunch of research and stuff, and then we're gonna tell you like how we interpret that. And I'm gonna uh I don't know. Not for me, but like you said, I think that's uh the sign of a quality show. It's like gonna resonate with people immediately, or in some people it's not. Like one of my favorite television shows is curb your enthusiasm. And I've told dozens of people, please watch this. I would love to laugh about it and talk about episodes with you, and then they come back to me the next week. They're like, Yeah, I tried episode one, it's terrible. How do you like that? So it doesn't have to be for everybody. Yeah. But one of the things that can make something uh really resonate, like with the people it resonates with, doesn't have to be everybody, but with the people it resonates with, they're passionate about it.

Alban 21:47

Uh, I think that curb is one of the reasons Kevin and I are good friends because there's only one person in my life who's liked curb your enthusiasm as much as I do, and it's Kevin. I share with people all the time. I'm like, you like Seinfeld? This is Seinfeld cranked up a couple notches, and they're like, no, this is so much worse. This is like makes me uncomfortable. And I'm like, yes, that's what's good. It's ratcheting it up the whole episode. And then there's a release at the end, and sometimes the release is that it got so much worse. And they're like, Yeah, I was just stressed out the whole time. Like, well, I was laughing the whole time, just loving every minute of it, seeing how the show is gonna keep getting worse. But yeah, it's uh it's for some, not for others. I would say for found. Kevin, he intentionally does pick people who have passed away. Uh-huh. And so that he can try to see less of the PR spin in a way that like some of Steve Jobs' legacy wasn't fully written until maybe 10 years after his death. You get a bit of that with just everybody. And so I think that's part of what he's trying to do with founders. Yeah.

Jordan 22:53

All right, what's next?

Alban 22:54

Uh next is business wars. And business wars, as the title would kind of indicate, it's about competition. Two companies going head to head, driven by the conflict, 35 minutes.

Kevin 23:06

Wait, wait, wait. 35 minutes, but almost every single one of their like business war series is at least two parts.

Alban 23:12

Yes, that's right. So they're split into 35 minute episodes that are multi-part. Yeah. They do a good job. They always leave you with a cliffhanger. So you got to listen to the next one.

Jordan 23:21

Yeah.

Alban 23:22

Another thing I noticed that was COVID. This is another business story podcast hosted by someone named David. So if you want to bust into this category, three out of the five have a David host.

Jordan 23:35

David. Um, I actually got a recommendation to listen to the Dungeons and Dragons season by uh Tom Rossi. And it was a solid recommendation. I was really surprised and a little bit delighted by their little like audio dramatizations situations.

Kevin 23:53

Oh my gosh, that's my commentary on this. As soon as Alban mentioned it, I was like, the audio dramatization segments are so cheesy.

Jordan 24:00

I was eating it up.

Alban 24:04

Another example of it is the things that are going to be divisive that will make your show a niche. Yeah. Like if there's not going to be someone who says, no way, I do not like how intense this guy is. I do not like how long these episodes are. I don't like how they leave me with a cliffhanger and they do the cheesy commentaries. If you don't have somebody saying I don't like it, it's actually going to be a little bit hard to find people who are saying, no, that's actually the part that I love. Like everybody, we're all different.

Kevin 24:34

You know, I actually remember now when I decided that I really could not take these little audio dramatizations that they do. And it's at the end of the episode, they have a legal disclaimer that says that the dramatizations are done by, you know, voice actors and they're not the real people. And I'm like, no one thought that they were the real people. Okay. It was so ridiculous that some lawyer made you put that at the end of your podcast. And now anytime they do one, I'm just like, oh, I have to like hit the fast forward button. I can't listen to the voice actors reenact the scene in a hotel room at night talking about did you hide the files? Yes, I hid all of the files. No one will ever find out that we did this awful business thing. Okay, good work. Now let's go down to the bar.

Alban 25:16

Not only did they find out about it, they put it in a podcast. Yes. And then we reenacted your voices.

Kevin 25:23

I happen to record this part of the conversation, and Business Wars just got a hold of it.

Alban 25:29

That was a terrible decision to record all of our shady business deals. And then last but not least, Masters of Scale. Uh it's the Reed Hoffman podcast, 20, 40 minutes long. There's sometimes other interviewers, but it's mostly Reid Hoffman from Netflix. It's a podcast that's really about growth. So companies that went from small to big positive growth. It's less about the early story. It's less about the leadership. It's not about the founder. It's about scaling and what works at each level as you're leveling up the company. So you go from small mom and pop, and at the end, you're this giant, you know, McDonald's. No company starts off as McDonald's. They started off as a small company and they had to step their way up. And so that's what Master of Scale is doing. And again, if you are in the target market, like you want to know how do I take this business that's been doing well as a company, you know, a restaurant of one, you know, single location. How do I move my way up? This is the podcast for you.

Jordan 26:40

Do they do it similar to like Land of the Giants, where it's sort of like a telling of how it happened? Or is it more similar to like a how-to? Like, here's some takeaways that you can take from how this person accomplished whatever.

Kevin 26:55

Here's what I like about Land of the Giants. And I think that's an another business podcast worth mentioning because it's very similar to one of the ones that we just talked about, which is Business Wars. But Business Wars gives you sort of like the entertained, again, with their like funny little reenactments and stuff. They give you the entertainment side of two businesses battling it out. Uh-huh. And they do that like in an hour. But if you want more depth, and I I think with just as much entertainment value, just sort of the full, full story, like in much greater detail and without the silly dramatic reenactments, then you have Land of the Giants. Yeah. Which the businesses they cover as opposed to Business Wars are the biggest businesses in the world. They're the Googles and the Facebooks and the Netflix and Disney. And so they don't get into like one of the uh Business Wars podcasts just did, like Apple Music versus Spotify. And just talking about the music side of Apple's business. So they they didn't cover Apple in the full glory of everything that is Apple, which is massive. They just said, let's just do Apple Music and let's compare that to Spotify. Well, Land of the Giants would like do like 10 episode season just on Apple or just on Google or just Netflix or something like that. So again, these podcasts seem like they are direct competitors, but once you dig into them, they're wildly different. And they probably they definitely have some audience overlap. Like I listened to both of those shows, but one is going to resonate more with a particular audience than another. Like I definitely find Land of the Giants much more interesting because that's just that world is completely foreign to me. So I want to hear as much detail as possible about it. I've never worked in a big corporate environment with, you know, billions of dollars on the line with every decision that you make and stuff like that. Business Wars a little bit more kind of my day-to-day. And so it's just not as I don't know. Like I listen to them both, but I get really excited when a new season of Land of the Giants comes out.

Alban 28:46

Yeah. I should have kept Land of the Giants in here. I feel like I should have put that in and maybe left, I don't know, Masters of Scale out, which is a little bit further out. I like that they do, you know, these long seasons. I really liked, I think I listened to the one on Twitter, and they kind of cut each episode is like 40 minutes, and it's like one story of the larger story.

Jordan 29:09

Yeah.

Alban 29:10

And it's it's a bit more journalistic, it's a bit more how it impacts culture and society. So it's addressing big questions, but told through the story of a single business. Yeah. Land of the Giants, that was another good one to include here.

Guess The Podcast Game: Starbucks

Jordan 29:24

I mean, it's by Vox. And I don't know if you've seen Vox documentaries, but they are so well produced. They're kind of like gritty, but also like very um cinematic at the same time. And like it's just it's it's such a fascinating look into everything that they are investigating or just uh covering in an episode. I love Lay on the Giants, and I'm not even interested in business, but I find it horrendously fascinating. And I think it's really well produced. It's just it's a great podcast.

Alban 29:53

Yeah. All right. So now that we've gone through these of the five that I gave you Masters of Scale, Business Wars, Founders Acquired, How I Built This. We're gonna play a game where I'm gonna describe a podcast episode about the company Starbucks. And you're going to tell me which of these five business story podcasts this is their episode. They're all the same. And I think that you're gonna be able to tell which is which.

Jordan 30:20

I I love this. I'm really excited to kind of see how each podcast would approach the exact same topic in a different way. This is fun.

Alban 30:29

All right. Uh buzz in when you have the answer. Okay. All right. Episode that I just downloaded to the feed. It's a lesson-filled look at Howard Schultz, the founder and CEO of Starbucks, focused on his beliefs, habits, and the decisions that shaped the company that he built. All right, Jordan.

Jordan 30:48

It's since it's a founder story, that sounds like how I built this to me.

Alban 30:52

No. Am I wrong? So close. Ah. But no, Kevin. I'm gonna go with founders.

Kevin 31:00

Thing is, Jordan, you said founder. I'm gonna piggyback off Jordan's answer and just go with founders.

Alban 31:08

Yes, I uh I wrote this one to be founders because really founders will talk about the individual like processes of their life, their habits, the way they think, and how it shaped the company they built. It's not as emotionally driven as maybe how I built this. Okay. Duh. All right. I nailed that one. It's one to zero. All right, here's the next one. This is the story of Starbucks versus McDonald's. This episode is centered on the battle for breakfast.

Jordan 31:35

Dang it.

Alban 31:35

And coffee market share. Jordan, I heard you both. I said, I said buzz, buzz, buzz. All right, Kevin. What is it? This is business wars. This is business wars. The battle for breakfast.

Jordan 31:49

Damn, damn.

Alban 31:50

All right. Episode three that I downloaded to my feed. Howard Schultz interview through how a small coffee company became a global brand. Buzz, buzz, buzz.

Jordan 32:00

Dang it.

Alban 32:02

I think we gotta let Jordan. I think Jordan got you just by a little bit on this one. Said buzz, buzz, buzz.

Jordan 32:09

You're trying so hard to give it to me, Alban.

Kevin 32:11

This is a biased judge. This is masters of scale. Oh now you're now you're pitching it. Are you really sandbacking, or was that your bet? That was my bet. I mean, it's either that or a quiet.

Alban 32:26

Nope. You gotta listen. Howard Schultz interview about how a small company became a global brand with a focus on the risks, doubts, and big turning points along the way.

Jordan 32:37

Oh, I thought it was how I built this, but I wasn't.

Kevin 32:41

You are correct.

Jordan 32:42

Yes.

Kevin 32:44

You didn't say anything about like with a focus on storytelling or oh, but the doubts.

Alban 32:50

That's the big thing. It's like how it's an interview with Howard Schultz.

Jordan 32:53

There's context clues.

Alban 32:54

So you knew it's it's founder led, but it's also him talking about the risks and doubts and what was going on in his heart. All right, fine. We can give it to Jordan, but I don't like the I don't like that question.

Kevin 33:04

Next. This is how I play trivia, also. If I get it wrong, it's because the uh whoever's running the trivia asked the question incorrectly.

Alban 33:12

All right, two to one. Question four. A deep strategic breakdown of how Starbucks built a premium brand. Jordan.

Jordan 33:22

Acquired.

Alban 33:22

Okay, it's acquired. Yes.

Jordan 33:24

Yes. Pulling ahead. So we're it's we're two two now. So this is the tiebreaker. Two tiebreaker. Okay.

Kevin 33:32

Okay.

Jordan 33:33

All right.

Kevin 33:33

Ready? A practical buzz buzz buzz. Master's escape.

Jordan 33:37

I was wondering what you do for the win. It didn't even occur to me that he wouldn't do like same one time when there's like five.

Alban 33:47

Strategy prevails. I was like, I'm just someone's gonna figure out that I've I've only left one. No, you're right, Kevin. It was Masters of Scale.

Jordan 34:00

All right. How is the Masters of Scale approach that? I want to hear it still.

Alban 34:05

A practical conversation about how Starbucks grew from a small concept into a massive company and what leaders can learn from that process. Yeah. Obviously. Masters of scale. In retrospect, I could have designed this game a little bit better. Um, but thank you both for playing. Congratulations, Kevin, with a strong win.

Jordan 34:29

All right. So now that we've covered all these different podcasts, uh, I mean, honestly, like vastly different podcasts in the exact same category. What can our listeners take away from this? I really think that you kind of just start with like, who is this for? You know, think about who you're trying to target, who are you trying to reach, what kind of person are you trying to impact in their daily life, things like that.

Kevin 34:51

Yeah. And I I would like the idea of writing this down.

Jordan 34:54

Yeah.

Kevin 34:54

And refining it over time. Just because you wrote it down doesn't mean that you can't ever change it or make it better or improve it. But writing it down for the purpose of reminding yourself. If it's just you doing the podcast, just reminding yourself. If it's you and co-host, reminding your co-hosts, oftentimes we do find ourselves with like an outline for a buzzcast that one of us will say, you know what? Maybe the core idea is solid, but the way we're approaching it is not in line with our audience. And we'll have to sit down and talk through and remind ourselves of who we're creating this show for, especially if you don't have a co-host or other people working with you on the podcast to help you remember, then especially write it down for yourself to remind yourself.

Jordan 35:30

Um, another thing that is a huge differentiator between different niches in a podcasting category is the podcast format. So we covered this with like how I built this, acquired land of the giants and uh founders. Like you can have a niche within the format. So, like interview, are you a solo podcaster? Are you doing a deep dive? Is this like documentary style, like land of the giants? Is this a round table discussion, listener QA, like a recap sort of podcast, a breakdown, case studies, things like that. If you really focus in on those formats, that format can actually become part of your niche too.

Kevin 36:08

Yeah. Until you've said them all, I didn't even remember how many different formats you can have for a podcast.

Jordan 36:13

There, yeah, there's so many. I didn't even I didn't even say audio drama. That was one of the things that we talked about.

Kevin 36:19

Oh goodness. We don't need more of that. No offense to our audio drama podcasters out there. That's all right. Just not for me. But you've done something good because you have lovers and haters.

Alban 36:29

I thought you were saying uh niches taken trying to protect it for Jordan. Oh no. All right. One takeaway I have is that tone matters more than you think. And I noticed this because I subscribe to lots of podcasts and I listen to different podcasts at different times. And it's kind of what Kevin said. Sometimes if you're gonna listen to acquired, I feel like I almost need to watch it or have it playing in a browser and I'm taking notes and typing as I'm listening. Right. It's an audio format, but it like demands your full attention. Right. And I need to be almost like typing and engaging with it actively. But some of my favorite podcasts of all time are they're just funny, they're a bit irreverent, they're not taking everything too seriously. I used to listen to this crypto podcast years ago that I just loved because they would do these deep dives and they'd figure out the truth of like what some coin is trying to do, but they were also just talking about it like this is the most absurd thing that everyone's investing millions of dollars into like crypto coins. This makes no sense. And they're just laughing the whole time and enjoying it. And I didn't want to listen to a crypto podcast, I just want to listen to those two guys go through what's happening on the internet. And so I think like tone really matters. And though this can be serious or funny, it can be warm, it can be analytical, you can be personal, but you can be polished, you can be calm or intense. Um, maybe like that the found uh the founder's guy, compassionate or irreverent. Like there's so many different ways you can take this. And probably uh the tone that's gonna match is the tone that the hosts have naturally. You know, so how are you approaching this? And are you gonna approach this subject matter different than the podcasts that you are listening to in your category?

Jordan 38:21

Well, and your tone might change over time as podcasters as we get used to things and we get acquainted with um our listener base and we get acquainted with how uh our podcast is growing and evolving and things like that. Like your tone and the personality that you are behind the mic might evolve as well. And sometimes you have to embrace that a little bit. I was thinking about James and Sam from Pod News Weekly Review. I remember when they first started that podcast together, it felt very like newsy and they would just kind of like break things down. And I've noticed in recent episodes, I'm hearing a lot more jokes, I'm hearing a lot of like cheeky back and forth and little quips and stuff like that. And it's actually making the podcast like much more enjoyable for me. And I love it because I'm getting glimpses of the personalities that I wasn't really getting at like the beginning of their podcast. And so that's another thing is like maybe your niche, and as you get comfortable with like your listeners and you get comfortable behind the mic, like your tone might change a little bit. Another thing that I think would be good to write down, like Kevin recommended, is what kind of payoff your podcast is going to give to the listener. I think that this goal, like the carrot at the end of the stick, can really drive your niche. Um, so are you trying to offer up inspiration, practical advice? Are you just entertaining? Is it like an edutainment sort of thing? Um are you just providing them clarity on a subject? Are you trying to offer emotional connection and a feeling of like friendship or a feeling of belonging to a community that they might not have in their like normal day-to-day lives? Things like that can really help drive like how you create content, how you approach interviews, how you talk to your listeners and your call to actions.

Kevin 40:07

It's so important. And I think podcasts fall down on this all the time. If there's one thing I see podcasts continually fall down on, it kind of feels like this. To me, as a listener, I think that oftentimes I'm listening to podcasts for a specific reason. Um, I'll call one out because I don't think these guys listen to our show. But dithering, Jordan, you don't listen to this. Alban, you listen to this. Do you feel like dithering oftentimes misses the mark of the promise, which is I want to hear two guys who are in tech journalism give sort of their deep thoughts around a specific topic. And sometimes they get so distracted by like their personal connection with each other and their friendship. They talk about sports a lot, they talk about articles that the other one has written, and then they're talking about their writing style. And should I have written about that? Or nobody I should have written about that. And all of a sudden, 15 minutes is up, which the podcast is 15 minutes to talk about this one thing. And I felt like, guys, you gave me two minutes of that. And and I'm here for the tech stuff, for the tech insight from these two, you know, great journalistic minds in tech. And I heard about, you know, what's going on in the NBA, and I heard about uh your article wasn't as fully fleshed out as you wished it was, and something so it's like it is like edutainment, but if they error, they error on the side of the entertainment side, not the education side. And I'm really there for the education side.

Alban 41:22

It's funny that that is your example because I have the exact opposite feeling from that show. I love every time they talk about baseball, they're like, I know people don't want to hear about baseball. And they're like, oh, this is gonna be so much of a better episode because there's like three minutes of baseball takes here and they're laughing.

Kevin 41:38

I don't mind their baseball takes, I hate their basketball takes. But uh why don't they just sell a baseball podcast then? I'd buy that.

Jordan 41:44

Kevin, I feel like you're describing our podcast.

Kevin 41:49

That's true. It's it's totally fine. I still listen. I just I'm there for a specific reason. And what's great is that we have an audience member here who's there for another reason, and he's getting what he wants, and I'm getting enough of what I want that I keep paying. Like, you should know this is a pay-only, subscription-only podcast. You can't listen to it for free.

Jordan 42:06

Yeah.

Kevin 42:06

And so it's like, and it's not cheap. I think it's it's like $8 now a month or something. Anyway, so yeah, even if you annoy your audience, if if they like your personality enough, they'll probably still stick around. Maybe that's the lesson. But deliver on your promise. Like, I'm paying you $8 a month to hear your text up.

Alban 42:21

Uh, I think the last takeaway I have is it's worth doing your research to look for gaps in your category. And if you were approaching this business stories category, you need to go and do the research that we did today and kind of try to dissect what are the top shows, what do they sound like, and what's missing? You know, you could listen to and go, you know, there's not many stories told by uh the people who actually have the experience themselves. You know, I'd like the I want the host to be somebody who's already built the business, or I want the tone to be more silly, or I'm hoping for the format to be a little bit tighter. You know, give me 15-minute breakdowns of big businesses so I learn some anecdotes. When you listen to them, like what do you wish they would do differently? That's probably one of those five things that you would tweak. You know, might it be the format or the hosts or the length or the takeaways. When you listen to more, you can identify the gaps and you're probably representative of an underserved area in the market. Can I put a word of caution around this?

Kevin 43:30

Yes. Okay. I I don't think Alban intends for anyone to listen to what he just said and walk away with like find a gap in the space and then fill it, even if it's not something that aligns with your talents or interests, skills, knowledge base, whatever. I think what he's saying is that it all has to come together. You want to be able to create a new business podcast. Go look what business podcasts exist, figure out what your interests in, figure out is there an opportunity here that's unserved? Is there uh a promise that like you as a listener are looking for that none of these things are delivering that you could deliver? But don't just like force it. Don't just be like, oh, here's a gap in the market. I know nothing about this gap. Uh, the new comedic spin on hot takes in the news, but I'm not a comic, but I can do it, I'll make it work. It's gonna be terrible.

Alban 44:19

Yeah. If I went in and the gaps I identified were the business failures, and I want to have like a silly, irreverent, like look check. Out these ridiculous business failures. That doesn't feel true to who I am. And so I wouldn't shoehorn myself into it. Yeah. I would approach it from listen to them and listen to like what inside of you is going, ah, they could have done that better. Yeah. Uh they could have stuck on topic more. Oh, you know what? I wish that they pursued that story harder. You know, I'm kind of tired of the deep dives for two hours and I'm feel stressed out that I'm going to miss an important detail. What I want is more emotionally driven content. And those are the things that are in you that you're probably going to naturally do anyway. And you're going to see, like, oh, there is a bit of a niche that here for somebody like me because I'm noticing what I really want them to be doing.

Jordan 45:12

I think that this step would be a lot harder for people who don't listen to podcasts. You know, if you're trying to start a podcast and you don't listen to podcasts, you might struggle to find what things you would do a little bit differently. I really think it's so important to listen. It it reminds me of, I can't remember exactly who said it. I think it was Stephen King who said that in order to be a writer, you must first be a reader.

Alban 45:33

Yes, that's Stephen King.

Jordan 45:34

Okay, great.

Alban 45:36

I'm pretty sure I've said that before too. Yeah, it was actually Stephen King uh quoting Kevin.

Jordan 45:40

Yeah, Kevin Finn once said.

Kevin 45:42

I mean, he might have said it first. He might have squeezed it in, but I've definitely said that.

Fan Mail

Jordan 45:47

But I think the same goes for podcasting. I think in order to be a really good podcaster and know what you like, what you would want to listen to, you gotta listen to podcasts, and it makes a huge difference.

Kevin 45:59

Surprisingly, we is and it's happened more than once. We've run into people at podcast conferences where we talk to them about their podcast and their show, and then we start asking them, oh, have you heard this one? Have you heard this podcast? Have you heard this one? They say, like, well, actually, I don't very listen to very many podcasts. And like, that's concerning. It's it's uh, I guess it's possible to be successful without listening to podcasts, but it's definitely not the easiest path forward.

Jordan 46:25

Let's get into some fan mail. First up, we have a message from Dave Jackson at School of Podcasting.

Dave 46:31

Hey guys, Dave Jackson just heard you talk about how Buzzsprout ads aren't always effective because the promo is bad. I would love any of you, or all of you, that'd be wild, to uh if you ever want to do an episode on this on the school of podcasting, or of course you could do it on Buzzcast. Uh, I'd love to hear what makes a good promo.

Jordan 46:50

All right, Dave, your offer to come on school podcasting, I will take you up on that happily. If Dave Jackson offers you a position on his podcast, you do not turn it down.

Kevin 47:02

Yeah, I agree. I think there's a lot there. I know we touched on it when we mentioned the idea that promos could be more effective if you put more time into your promo.

Dave 47:10

Uh-huh.

Kevin 47:11

Um, and I think we covered a few tips like making sure you say the name of your podcast and maybe repeating it again at the end and then talking about some of the unique differentiators, things that we covered in this episode. Like it'd be a great place once you go through the exercise of actually writing all these things down, figuring out how to form that into a great promo for your episode. Yeah. But there's definitely a lot more meat on that bone, and you're right, it could make a great episode.

Jordan 47:32

Actually, we could do both promos and trailers in the same episode too, because I get a lot of questions about trailers as well. So that'd be kind of neat to put those two together since they're a little bit similar. Yeah.

Alban 47:42

Yeah. And I think it's very similar to what we've talked about in this show. If you're writing down who's the audience, what's the takeaway, what's the tone, what's the format, you're going to answer a lot of the questions around how do you tell people this is the podcast you want to listen to in 30 seconds to a minute long.

Jordan 47:58

Mm-hmm. Next up, we have a message from Sonny from Ugly Quacking Duck.

Sunny 48:04

Hello everyone. This is Sonny from the Ugly Quacking Duck podcast. Just want to take a minute and say thank you for the latest update. That voicemail button should make a big difference. So keep up the good work, keep podcasting. Oh, I hear somebody coming. What are you doing, Sonny? Who are you talking to?

Alban 48:27

That's awesome. What what is this ugly quacking duck podcast?

Kevin 48:31

Uh, we when we got that voicemail, I had to go check it out. And so evidently, Sonny and Bruce? Yeah, Sonny and Bruce. Sonny and Bruce. Yes, they do a podcast together. And so I guess Sonny is the the sidekick to Bruce on Bruce's podcast. And I thought that maybe there was something wrong with our voicemail feature or something, like it was messing up, but it's not. It's just the duck found a phone and called in and left us a voicemail.

Jordan 48:55

So you know what I love is that our listeners have found like the most unhinged ways. Like this feels very much like leaving those prank voicemails.

Kevin 49:03

Uh-huh.

Jordan 49:04

People are gonna use these like voice filters on the roadcasters to like prank voicemail other podcasters.

Alban 49:11

I just want to use this in all of our marketing materials now. Uh voicemail, so easy, a duck can use it.

Kevin 49:17

Yeah. And and Jordan, I don't know this for sure, but I think that uh the Sunny voice is 100% legit. Like that's a real voice. I don't think it's an AI or a voice filter. I think that is like actual voice talent.

Jordan 49:29

Are you sure? That'd be cool.

Kevin 49:31

No, I'm not sure. But I think, I think I read that somewhere. Either it came at the tail end of that voicemail or um it was on the ugly quacking duck podcast website or something like that. Cool. But either way, I think Sonny and Bruce have found a niche. Like they are unique in their space.

Jordan 49:46

I love it. All right, and our next voicemail is actually a prompt for our next episode from David from No Stroke Podcast, who has approached the hundredth episode and they've been planning for what happens after their podcast wraps up and talking about writing a book and using a licensing play, things like that. And so here's what he has to say.

David 50:07

Here we go. This is David with the No Stroke Podcast. I'd love to see if you can do an episode on repurposing show content. And we're already using the fan mail feature to ask past guests to leave us a note of congrats as we hit a hundred. Thanks for always building new tools for us.

Post Show: Apple Podcasts Video Beta Update

Alban 50:24

Oh, I love this idea. So I was just on YouTube this morning answering some of the comments, and somebody left a comment saying, Thank you so much for all the work on transcripts because they wanted to know how we repurpose content. And I'd just seen this and I told them I think this would be a great idea for a show. We should do it. So yeah, let's let's talk about repurposing content. I think as soon as you have a podcast series or a few episodes and you've kind of gone around the same topic and then you have it all broken out with a transcript, I think it really opens you up to tons of new repurposing ideas. So yeah, uh, this is this is a great idea.

Jordan 51:04

And I think that we definitely want to go beyond just blogs and social posts because I feel like a lot of people know that you can repurpose uh podcast content that way. So maybe you want to look for some more creative ways to do that. So to send those in, go ahead and tap the send us fan mail link in the show notes. And until next time, thanks for listening and keep podcasting.

Kevin 51:27

Do you guys want a little uh Apple podcast video project update?

Jordan 51:32

Ooh, yeah. Well, this is sneaky. We're like in the very end of the episode. Okay.

Kevin 51:36

I will tell you that we've got some customers publishing video through Buzzsprout. Everything's going pretty well. Some of these podcasts are bigger than others. A couple of them got featured in Apple Podcasts on the like um new and video section or whatever.

Jordan 51:53

Oh, cool.

Kevin 51:54

Which is pretty neat. So if you open your Apple Podcast app on your phone and you go to Now with video? Yeah, new and video. Um, scroll across that thing now with video. Go down to where it says like newly added video and scroll over four or five or six. And who do you see? Two guys on a plane. Hey! Two guys on a plane. Yes, that's awesome. No way, and then keep scrolling a little further. And who do you see?

Jordan 52:22

Vera House.

Alban 52:23

Vera House Podcast.

Jordan 52:25

Oh my gosh.

Alban 52:27

VeraHouse was the first bus brought podcast to ever be in video. Do video on Apple Podcasts. They were even before any of us did one.

Jordan 52:35

Brave Souls.

Kevin 52:36

So I thought that was fun. I mean, there that's that's pretty big, right on uh homepage of the Apple Podcast app.

Jordan 52:43

It looks so good.

Kevin 52:43

Pretty big feature.

Alban 52:45

Last night, Kevin. Yeah, I'm leaving the office and you ran over to Tom's computer and you're like, hey, I want to look at some of the stats for these videos. Oh gosh. We're gonna tell you. Is this connected? Were you just seeing a bunch of stats come in from these shows because some of them got featured?

Kevin 53:00

No, the stats thing I was talking about is that another podcast in our video beta has an episode that's doing really, really well, like exceptionally well. And so we're just digging deep into the stats and verifying everything is legit. And as far as we can tell, everything looks perfectly legit. And so uh it's possible that you know we were we're not um Apple didn't come out and say that discoverability would be a huge part of video and Apple Podcasts, but at least for this one episode, it appears to be helping. And so I don't know, we're still building out the stats and everything, so we'll see if that uh proves to be true. But at least one of the many episodes that we published so far seems to have been getting a bit of a stats boost from from publishing video.

Alban 53:38

I mean, this makes sense. We remember when Apple Podcast subscriptions came out. Anybody who launched subscriptions early on, there were a handful that got a lot of promotion from Apple because they want to highlight the people who are using their new features well. Yeah.

Jordan 53:51

Yep.

Alban 53:52

And especially if you're already shooting video content, getting into this beta and then getting your shows up there. So when we go through our full launch, I'm sure there'll just be more opportunities for video podcasters, especially in Apple, to get what might just be like a one-time big promotion. But as we've seen with Apple Podcasts New and Noteworthy, sometimes that turns into sustained growth, especially if you have a podcast that kind of catches the audience at the right time and people stick around.

Jordan 54:23

Well, and they've been running subscriptions for a couple years now, I think. Maybe, maybe even longer than a couple years. And they still have categories like in their editorial sections where it's like top subscriptions and like they feature podcasts with subscriptions. If you have a subscription on Apple Podcasts, you're more likely to get featured. So I do think it's still, even years later, plays a part in it. So yeah, might be doing the same thing with video.

Kevin 54:46

I'm sure that's true. Yeah. All right. Well, we'll circle back. We are gonna have a lot more news to share in the next couple weeks around uh this video launch and all that's happening there.

Jordan 54:55

So excited. Coming soon.