How to Find the Right Podcast Co-Host

Finding a podcast co-host can make your show more fun, sustainable, and dynamic! But picking the wrong person can also make podcasting way harder than it needs to be.

In this episode, we talk through where to actually find a good co-host, why a “anyone want to start a podcast?” post is probably not the strongest strategy, and what to look for before you commit to recording together.

We also discuss how to test a potential co-host before making things official, why recurring guests or people in your life can become great co-hosts, and why writing down a few simple expectations early can save you from a lot of awkward conversations later.

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Transcript

Father’s Day

Jordan 0:00

All right, guys, Father's Day weekend is coming up. Do you guys have any plans for this weekend?

Kevin 0:05

Uh my expectations are low for this Father's Day. Why? They are low. Well, a couple of reasons. One, um, I've got a daughter and two sons, and uh, the daughter is the oldest, and so she's always taking the lead on Father's Day. Uh happens usually during summer break. She's been in college the last couple years, but she's back doing some classes and internships this year. So she's out of town. So it's kind of up to the boys. The boys are at camp. They're at a uh like a summer week-long camp. They don't get back till Sunday. So I I'm just imagining. There's no way that two high school boys planned ahead and thought, oh, we're gonna be out of town for the week before Father's Day, we should do something early and get it right. There's no way.

Jordan 0:45

I mean, you might get like a Father's Day miracle.

Alban 0:48

You're getting something out of like the camp store, best case. 100%.

Kevin 0:53

If by chance, like one of the leaders at the camp reminded all the kids like you're going back and it's Father's Day, go grab them something from the camp store, maybe. But outside of the like one of their leaders giving them a heads up, there's there's no way. You're getting like a finger painted Happy Father's Day from your 16-year-old son. Right. From my two high school boys, I'm gonna get, I don't know, like a macaroni necklace or something back from honestly.

Alban 1:19

That would be awesome. That would be really funny if that was.

Jordan 1:21

That would be what about you, Alban?

Alban 1:24

Um, I'm actually the one who's out of town. My daughter was will be with my mother-in-law this weekend. Uh, one of my good friends from law school is getting married. And so we'll be up in North Georgia for the wedding, and then we will drive back early Sunday. So I'm sure we'll do something Sunday night, but we'll probably all be kind of wiped out. So I'm also hoping for the macaroni necklace.

Jordan 1:48

Wow. Bars set really high. No, this actually makes me feel a lot better because I actually forgot about Father's Day. Like it snuck up on me.

Alban 1:58

You've still got like plenty of time.

Jordan 2:00

Oh, yeah. I know, but here's the problem is that I'm going to be working in the Jacksonville office like Monday. Monday, I'm gonna be there. I'm actually coming a day early because I have like some recordings and I forgot that it was Father's Day weekend, and flights are really crazy right now. And so I have to leave like a day ahead. And so I'm I booked my flight for Sunday and booked my hotel and everything, like it's all set. And then I was like, oh, it's Father's Day. And so my husband has to drive me to the airport.

Kevin 2:34

I'm leaving.

Jordan 2:35

Yeah, I'm leaving you with the kids. I feel so bad.

Alban 2:40

What time do you fly down?

Jordan 2:41

I fly out at like 1:30. So I could probably leave at like 11, 11:30. Yeah.

Alban 2:45

So you kind of have like maybe a break, a little brunch opportunity.

Jordan 2:49

Yeah, we've got like a breakfast thing, maybe.

Alban 2:51

Or you find one near the airport and then tell him to drive you to the airport. And then on the way, you go, let's stop here. Special brunch.

Jordan 2:58

There's there's nothing on the way to the airport. I don't know if you've been out west. Like our airports are out in the middle of nowhere.

Kevin 3:05

Maybe uh why don't you do the uh you know, remember the dumb and dumber scene where they spent all the money, but they have the whole box of IOUs? Why don't you just give them an IOU for a really nice father's day when you come back?

Jordan 3:16

That's another classic gift is the like coupon book. Right.

Alban 3:19

With like just so that never gets it's like I will clean up my room. And you're like, you were supposed to do this already.

Jordan 3:26

This is not a gift.

Where To Find A Co-Host

Jordan 3:34

Welcome back to Buzzcast, the podcast about all things podcasting from the people at Buzzsprout. So today we're gonna be talking about where to find a good co-host. I've been seeing posts all over the internet for like, I don't know, the last couple of years about people just posting, hey, I'm looking for a co-host. Like, where do you find a good co-host? And do you guys like have any recommendations on like how I can find a co-host? And it's so interesting that these people are like posting on the internet to find a co-host because I don't know, that's really not the first place I would look.

Alban 4:07

No, I think that that I mean, the beginning of our outline are just screenshots of people saying, anybody want to be the co-host? And some of them they don't have enough info to even know, like I've got no way to start even thinking about it. One was I'm potentially taking over a show that already has an existing catalog and fan base. Oh, okay, good opening line. Does anybody want to be a co-host? That's like, I mean, that's like saying I'm adopting some kids. Anybody interested in being their mom with me and co-parenting? Like, we're jumping way into the deep end real fast. Yeah.

Kevin 4:45

Well, I mean, it tells you something about who you'd be hosting with. At least like they're concise. They don't get bogged down in unnecessary details or even necessary details. They just skip all the details.

Alban 4:56

You're you're not gonna know analysis by or paralysis by analysis with this one. Right.

Jordan 5:02

No, absolutely not.

Alban 5:03

So there's a lot. I mean, you found quite a bit of these. I I think this is a really good topic to talk through, but I'm more convinced after I read the asks that people are posting. It's almost like they think all you need are two people who are both interested in doing a podcast, and then you've got a good co-host dynamic. And I think that there's so much more that goes into finding the right person for the podcast. Like it's a combination of the podcast and the people. So good pick, Jordan. I like this episode.

Jordan 5:36

Yeah. I mean, what kind of traits should people be looking for in a good co-host? Because, like you said, it's not just like two people that want to start a podcast. It's not like I'm looking for a buddy to go bowling with me on Thursday nights. It's it's not that simple. It's like some finding someone who is going to share a workload with you, who's going to share passion with you and share energy and vibes with you.

Kevin 5:59

I agree. Obviously, when you're putting the outline together and you're looking for examples of people who are looking for co-hosts, like you're doing your research online. So, of course, all the examples that you pull are going to be, you know, people who are online looking for podcast host guests. But I think we'd all probably align that our first best recommendation would be that you would find somebody in your life already who you know, like in real life. Like it's not that finding uh a co-host for your podcast online, it's not that it can't work, but I think we would all say that probably shouldn't be your first like avenue that you explore. I think ideally it would be somebody that you already know, that you have an ongoing relationship with, um, or at least that you have the ability to spend time with in real life so that you can build that connection and build that vibe. And so that when you get in the recording studio, when you get a mic in front of you, when you get the headphones on, if you're doing a video show, you have the cameras on, all that added pressure doesn't like get weird because you already have a very comfortable connection with the person. So I think we would all say if you can find somebody that you already know and have a relationship with and maybe a long history, even better, that would be the ideal place to start. And then maybe we can talk about, okay, well, if you don't have that person and you want to look online, we can give some tips about like how to structure that to give people the right context or information or how do you vet somebody who you haven't really met yet in real life and how you can find them online later.

Jordan 7:19

Everything

Start With People You Know

Jordan 7:20

that you're saying is aligning with like dating. And I'm I'm so thankful. I'm so lucky that I miss the bus on the whole like app dating scene. I didn't have to do any of that. Like I met my husband at church. It was very simple. Everything that we're talking about feels so much like online dating. And I think that this is something that people encounter in, especially in a like a post-COVID world. Like all these communities are built up online. People have gotten more um, I don't know, to be more like homebodies. Like people aren't going out as much. They aren't involved in communities as much or going to events as much. And so it feels like it's a lot harder to like connect with people because you're not in person, you're not building these relationships over like years and stuff like that. But it is so much better to communicate and connect with people who you know in real life first.

Alban 8:10

Yeah. Yeah. I started going through this list of podcasts I've listened to, and I was like, okay, how'd these co-hosts meet? How'd these co-hosts meet? And a lot of them were coworkers or long-term friends that they knew each other pretty well. And so they had an inkling like this is gonna work out well. And I think like a lot of this will continue to come back to if you know somebody, you get so many, so much better of a feel whether or not this will work out.

Jordan 8:38

We actually got a family message from Ryan from the co-op campfire podcast. And he said that my co-host James and I have been best friends for almost 20 years, and we've had many lengthy conversations about all sorts of topics in the genre. And their genre is uh like cozy gaming, which is right up my alley. I'm probably gonna subscribe to that. So last October, I approached him about making our conversations into a podcast. So my advice is you'll know you have a good co-host when you feel comfortable talking about anything, their level of energy for the podcast matches yours. And as a golden rule, you enjoy your time together. Yeah, that's super important. And he said, James has repeatedly stated that his favorite night of the week is hopping online and talking games. That's so awesome.

Kevin 9:25

That's great. I would modify just one thing in that whole statement. I think it's an excellent statement. But when he says their level of energy for the podcast matches yours, I might just change the word matches for compliments. Because, like, in my experience, my my energy level does not match Jordan and Alban at all. Uh Jordan and Alban bring way more energy most days, and but I feed off of that. And so it brings my energy level up and I need that. Like if I had uh the if the host for the show or a show that I was doing had somebody who matched my energy, it would you would no one would ever listen or watch the show. Like it would be so boring and dry.

Alban 10:03

The word that I kept thinking of was compliment. Uh I wrote down some ideas that I had for what we should be looking for in a co-host.

Kevin 10:14

Alban's just going right over this. I think I said switch the word matches for compliments. And now you're trying to steal my epiphany.

Alban 10:24

I'm complimenting what you said.

Kevin 10:26

Find a co-host that listens to what you say. Oh, and then builds upon it instead of trying to steal your your take. Anyway, Alban, good point. I agree with you completely. Please continue.

Alban 10:42

Oh man, I was so excited about my notes that I'd taken. All right. The reason I thought of compliment, and other people also have thought of the word compliment because it's the right word, is because you don't necessarily you don't want people who are acting the same on the podcast. They're podcasts that the voices sound too similar or the energy level is the same, and they all kind of just mush into like you can tell it's different people talking to each other, but it could almost be like one guy just switching microphones.

Kevin 11:14

You know, is is that something that people should think about? That's so interesting that you say that. I remember Reply All, which is they don't record anymore, but I used to love that show. But I would get so confused about whose voice was whose on the show that I knew who the like the who the characters were of the show. It wasn't a video show, it was only audio, but I could never like remember like who's talking right now. Right. And I found it kind of annoying a little bit that I didn't know that, oh, this is and I don't even remember the names of the people on the show like DJ and Alex. Alex. Yeah. I know characteristics about each of them, but they would completely overlap because their voices were too similar.

Jordan 11:51

Their personalities were too.

Alban 11:52

When I listened to uh ATP, that's how I felt like it was too. That it took me a long time to get to where I could distinguish three different relatively similar guy voices from each other and figure out their personalities were very different, but it took a while for me to get that distinction. And I we got that feedback on Buzzcast. Travis and I were too similar, and so now Jordan has more of a distinction in our voices, so it's a little bit easier to differentiate.

Jordan 12:22

Yeah, for sure.

Kevin 12:23

Yeah. So I don't I don't know that you would ever um you you'd find the perfect co-host, but then have to have a tough conversation with them about you know, our voices are just too similar. One of us are gonna have to do something. I don't know that you can't. Yeah, you don't have to take it that far. But yeah, I I will say that at least as a listener, the listener experience, if I find it easier to connect and get to know the host when I'm listening to audio podcasts when their voices, I can clearly distinguish who is who. Anyway, probably probably a bad thing I'm putting in people's heads when they're thinking about a co-host. Like you don't need to worry about how different your voices are, at least initially.

Jordan 13:01

Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of like podcasts that will bring in their family members. So, like my brother, my brother, and me, and like um, beach too sandy, water too wet. So that's like a brother and a sister. So they don't really have to worry about things like that. But there's a lot of podcasts where they bring in like family members. So I know best friends, like you can be like Ryan, you can be best friends with James for like 20 years. But I mean, if you don't have a best friend for 20 years and you're looking for someone that's gonna be there long term for you, and you know you can count on them, you know you can trust them, you know everything about them, and you know you get along. Like a sibling can actually be a really good option for a podcast partner.

Kevin 13:42

Do you guys notice when people start hanging out with new people and they start to pick up the little sayings that they do, their inflections, they start talking like my my daughter now goes, she's in college, so she gets different roommates every year. And every year I can kind of see how her like vocal patterns change, but she's like picking up habits or speech patterns like from her new roommates. I'm like, oh, you sound a lot like this girl now, or you sound a lot like this girl now. Anyway, it could happen. And I think it would be like to the benefit probably of a show that you're listening to, is that you're, you know, you're talking the same language with these people. So again, like that will happen naturally if it's somebody that you have a relationship with. But if you just found somebody new on the internet and you connected with, I still think it can work. It just is probably going to take you a few more episodes until you start like, I don't know, like that sounded straight or dry, but it was meant as a joke. And so like now we're laughing and we play off of it or something like that. Like that stuff just takes time to develop.

Jordan 14:35

Well, and I also think that what you're talking about goes along with disagreements. Like, is this someone who you can disagree with and you guys are able to kind of navigate disagreements in like a healthy manner and um negotiate or compromise on certain things? Coworkers are a great option for this because you already know how they are in like high stress environments.

Alban 14:57

Yeah, that so when I did my search, a lot of the podcasts were former coworkers. Stuff you should know. Josh and Chuck met each other at how stuff works, reply all, like we just mentioned, uh, Pod Save America. They were all writers for Obama. Smartless, bunch of friends who'd work together on TV shows and movies. Um, Conan O'Brien needs a friend. Obviously, uh Matt, Sana, and Conan all work together. So there's just so many examples of you work with somebody and you can tell, like, we get along in a professional environment, we enjoy each other's company, we've become friends over time. That's probably a good indicator they could do a podcast together well.

Kevin 15:38

Yeah, and side bonus to

Reliability And Sharing The Work

Kevin 15:40

that is that you know their work ethic, right? Like if you worked alongside of them, you knew that are they always late for work or they show up on time? Are they calling in sick every other day? Are they, you know, showing up consistently? That type of stuff. Like, we haven't gotten into all the details of that yet, but I'm sure it's gonna flush out again. I should probably read these outlines. Uh, so I'm sure it's in there somewhere.

Alban 16:00

Yeah, something about work ethic.

Kevin 16:03

Those are traits that you want to find. Podcasting is fun, but it's also a lot of work. And so if only one of two people or three people or four people is carrying the majority of the work, that can start to wear on the relationship over time. So I like the idea of if this is a person that you've worked with before, whether it be in a professional context or um volunteer work or whatever, or you've just done a lot of life with them and done whatever, you planned a party together with them, something you know, like their ability to contribute, their ability to show up and be consistent and be dependable.

Alban 16:32

Number four on my list, Kevin, was reliable. And I actually I unlearned underlined it because it doesn't feel like it should be this number one thing. I'm looking for reliable when I'm trying to find a co-host. But there's no way you're gonna be able to stick with a podcast if your co-host doesn't show up when you plan it. And I've seen lots of things in our Facebook group where someone's like, I don't know what to do. I started a podcast with my friend, and now it's like I'm editing, I prep it, and then I show up to the Zoom room and nobody else is there, and then I text them and they say, sorry, can't do it tonight, let's do it tomorrow. But now I've got plans tomorrow. So now we're I don't know when we're gonna get this episode out. Reliability is just like it's if it's not there, it's gonna be so difficult. And you're gonna add so much overhead to planning and just trying to work out when you've got time. It's okay if people don't have time to do the podcast forever, but if you don't have like a sense that they will show up when we put it on the calendar, then I don't know how you would be able to push through that.

Jordan 17:37

You know where that shows up immediately is when you have guests on your like already established podcast. Like they're I I know we've all experienced it where you go to like guest on someone's podcast or you have someone on as a guest on the podcast and they're like a no-show or they flake out or something like that. And that is a really fast way to be like, okay, like maybe this person's a little too busy, or maybe they just are forgetful, or they don't care enough. And um, there's a lot of podcasts where they will have guests that become co-hosts on the show. Can you guys think of any good examples of that?

Kevin 18:17

Well, let me think.

Alban 18:20

Uh yes, obviously, Jordan was a guest on this podcast. I think we should actually talk a whole segment about that. Yeah, a great place to do you could find your co-host is by having people on as guests so that you can kind of do a bit of a trial period where you figure out would this work as a podcast? It's one thing to imagine it's gonna work out well. You kind of know the personality, you think this person compliments us well, but then actually recording will be a little bit of the proof right there. And I mean, kind of, Kevin, like we did do this somewhat intentionally.

Kevin 18:55

Yeah. When so, so that is our story. I'll give you the nutshell version because I think we've told it a few times on this this podcast before. But then the nutshell version is Travis was transitioning out of Buzz Sprout, and so and he was a big part of the show. He not only was one of the co-hosts with us, but he also was like the producer of the show and he would edit the show and all this kind of stuff. So it was kind of a big role. Um, and Alban and I just we just didn't know anybody yet. Like, who how how are we gonna find someone to fill this role that Travis had been doing such an excellent job of filling? And so we decided, hey, for the next couple of weeks, we here's what we know we know consistency is important, and we know a lot of great people in the podcasting space. And there's a lot of people who listen to Buzzcast who are fans who we've, you know, gotten to know just with um, you know, emails and we've met at conferences and started interacting and in our Facebook group and stuff like that. So, like, let's invite some of these people on the show just to be a co-host for the week, you know, kind of like a guest, and we'll we'll see how that goes. Well, after doing it, I think Jordan, were you the first one or second one that we had on?

Jordan 19:52

I I feel like the second, but I'm not sure.

Kevin 19:54

Yeah, I think you were very early. And I so we did, you know, a couple episodes, and I I think we pretty quickly got to the point where Alban and I were like, we don't want to continue finding new guests every episode. We want to get back to that dynamic where we have three people who get along and know each other have this vibe, and and that that's more the show that we want to do, not a guest show. And that episode that we did with Jordan was so great. Like, what if maybe we can run a couple more guests just to make sure? But like, are you feeling what I'm feeling? And Alban was like, yeah, totally. If Jordan wants to do this, I need to contact her and figure out if she uh is even open to the idea. Anyway, that all went splendidly. Like, that was a fantastic phone call, and Jordan was all into it and it worked out. But I don't think we had the foresight to say, like, we should run uh guests on the show as sort of like an audition process to become the new guest, but it turned into that. And so now I would actually propose that as like a strategy that people could use. If you have an ongoing podcast and you want to add someone to the mix, or if you need to replace somebody, that is a I I it worked for us. Accidentally we fell into it, but now that I know that it works, I would recommend it as like like an intentional strategy.

Alban 21:04

Yeah, you actually will avoid some awkwardness that you're not gonna have to ask somebody like, hey, would you want to be a co-host? And then you record three episodes and you go, Yeah, it doesn't really work. I mean, you could almost just start a show as here's my interview show, and I bring people on, like uh John Gruber's The Talk Show, where he has kind of recurring guests and he goes through the list. And eventually, if you're like, I actually just like talking to Jordan. Every time she comes on, it's great. And now she's on more often and the audience loves her, and then you go, hey, you just want to be a permanent co-host, then you've kind of solved that problem without ever having to have any uh awkward conversations, saying, like, oh, it was nice to have done those three episodes with you. Uh, I will not be continuing our podcast co-host relationship.

Jordan 21:50

That's something I see all the time, like in Reddit forums and stuff like that. And I think it's really common. And perhaps it's common because people aren't very Selective when it comes to picking a co-host, or they're not very careful, or they'll like jump into something with somebody. I see posts all the time where people are like, oh, my co-host can't do this, or they flick down on me, or you know, they're not sharing the workload. And so I'm looking for a new co-host. And yeah, if you already have a podcast established, it's so easy to like go on like pod match or something and find people that are interested in like similar topics and see if you like vibe. And then you can maybe like invite them again and again. And then pretty soon they just become like a co-host. This happened with um the minimalists. So they had, I discovered them when they had that like documentary on Netflix about minimalism. Josh and Ryan, they started a podcast after they did a couple of uh documentaries, and it was just all about minimalism. And it was just the two of them, like every single episode for like a long time. And then they started having guests on who specialized in just like certain things. And then they had this like one guest named uh TK Coleman, and he's so cool, and he's just everything he says is just like nuggets of knowledge, just back to back to back. Like he's awesome. And he became like a fan favorite, and so they brought him on a whole bunch, and then pretty soon it was just like he joined the squad, and now he's just like a part of the podcast. Like he's he's a permanent fixture.

Kevin 23:22

Yeah. You know, you know, you you mentioned something at the beginning of that little segment that you did that I think we might have glossed over a little bit at the beginning of this episode. And so I don't want to like totally go back and reframe everything, but you said something like uh every now and then people will just make a quick decision or or somebody will say yes to the idea and they'll they'll jump in with them. And I think that is um something that we should be cautious of, whether you're you're starting a brand new show or or looking to replace somebody or add somebody down the road. Either way, like it's okay to be selective. It's okay to take your time. It's not the right analogy. I know, Jordan, you were mentioned like uh online dating or whatever. It's not the right analogy to say, like, this is a marriage. Like it's not, it's not that big. It's not, this isn't a a business partner. Like that's probably a little bit too big, too. Podcasts aren't that level, but that there is some level, and it should be taken, you know, pretty seriously. Uh so you are starting a relationship. You are hopefully starting to build a fan base, a fan base that will connect with you and whoever you ultimately decide is going to also be a regular uh, you know, uh personality on this show that you're doing. And so if it doesn't work out, that will be disruptive. It'll be disruptive to you, it'll be disruptive to your workflow, it'll be disruptive to your audience. It will be a step back, it'll be something. And so I think it's okay to be selective. We definitely would rather err, I think, on the side of, hey, let's experiment for a while. Let's run a few episodes together, and then I might get somebody else to run a few episodes together, I might get somebody else to run a few episodes together, I might do a few solo episodes or whatever while you're trying to find your footing until you decide uh this is the right person, you have that conversation with them, they feel the same way. Now you're connected, now you make a commitment, now you figure out like, oh, how are we gonna distribute the workload? What is our recording schedule gonna look like? How are we gonna prioritize this in our lives? And we're all on the same page with all that stuff because in order to build something of value, it is gonna take commitment, it is gonna take work, it is gonna take uh a vibe of personalities, it's gonna take all this stuff. And so if you're not aligned on that stuff, it's just gonna be harder. It's gonna be take you longer to achieve the goals that you want to achieve. So I don't know. It's a long way of saying, like, it's okay to be selective, it's okay to um just like if you were dating somebody and then you were gonna take the next step in that relationship, like, I don't know, whatever it is, we're we're gonna be exclusive or we're going to uh get engaged, or we're gonna and again, marriage is too far of an analogy. I just don't have another one topic mind.

Alban 25:50

But you wouldn't find somebody on a dating app and go exclusive instantly. Like you just talk chatted them the first time and said, Okay, we're exclusive together. And that's almost the leap that seems like what's happening over on Reddit, where people post, hey, looking for a co-host, anybody in? Someone goes, I'm in. And they're like, Great, we are doing a podcast. But then four episodes in, they come over to the Facebook group and go, guys, I don't know what's going on. Like, I do all the work, uh, they barely show up and the audience isn't really resonating with them. What do you think the problem is? Well, yeah, you jumped into the podcast with this person, you don't even know who they are.

Kevin 26:25

When stuff like that happens, I don't think it's an indictment on either side. Like the reality is that both of those individuals could be excellent podcasters, just like paired with another person, but you're trying to find your person. You know, like what does Phoebe say on friends? Like she's trying to find her lobster. The like the lobsters find their their soul mate, whatever, and they they they mate for life. Like you're finding your lobster, your podcast lobster, your podcast lobster.

Traits That Create Great Chemistry

Alban 26:47

All right. Well, I wrote a list of seven things that I want in a co-host. Can I read you this list?

Kevin 26:54

I hope we check some of these boxes.

Jordan 26:56

Uh yeah. Okay, here we go.

Alban 27:01

If I was giving advice, which I guess this show is, these are the things that if I was starting another podcast that I would be looking for. Number one, uh, somebody who's warm. So they're friendly, they're easy to get along with. Right after right out of the gate coming at me. Warm it up, Kev. I didn't say agreeable, I said warm. I think you could you check that box. All right. Number two is some type of productive tension. That there's podcasts where everybody kind of agrees, and you're like, oh, what did you think about the new blah blah blah book? Oh, it was so good. Oh, what do you think about that new movie? So good. Oh, what do you think? Oh, so good. We all agree, it's all good, everything's good. And there's nothing at stake. And the audience wants a little bit of conflict, they want to see different opinions, and people work through it. So there's just much more interesting with a little bit of tension.

Jordan 27:58

Yes.

Alban 27:59

So disagreeable but fun. Next, different relationship with the audience. So some podcasts will have two experts, others will have like an expert and maybe someone who's brand new to the genre. Uh, one is you know, you just want people who have a little bit not the perspective's just different, but one kind of is a stand-in for the audience. And so the audience can identify with people kind of differently. Does that make sense?

Jordan 28:28

Okay, I have a perfect example of this, and it is um on fire with Jeff Propes. So this is a Survivor Companion podcast, and I think it is the best example of what a companion, like a television companion podcast, should be. And the reason for this is because Jeff is the producer and the host of Survivor. And then on the podcast, his producer is a Survivor super fan and he loves the show. And then they have a third co-host every season, and the third co-host like changes, but it's always the winner of the previous season. And so they cover the next season together. So it's like a watch podcast. And so you're viewing the episodes through the lens of the producer, the host, the fan who is kind of a reflection of you, and then also the player who already has like this insider knowledge of like strategies that aren't shown on the television. And I think it is so good. And every companion podcast or like television cover podcast should do this formula. It is perfection.

Alban 29:30

Right. Because the one, the version that we get from everyone else is we got three super fans together and they all ask the same question. Well, why did they do that when I was watching The Bachelor? And then why'd they why'd he eliminate her? That that I didn't like that. I none of us liked that. But if you now have all three of them, the super fan is gonna say, I I can't believe that you guys kicked so-and-so off the island. Oh, behind the scenes you didn't know, but he was gossiping about people and we didn't like it. And then the producer goes, Yeah, we didn't want to show it because it really cast this person in a bad light and it felt inappropriate. And like instantly the question can get answered. Why did this thing happen? The question gets answered, it gets richer, and there's three uh very valid uh perspectives that are all gonna necessarily inform each other. I think, Jordan, very good example.

Kevin 30:22

Jordan, I really didn't like that example. Just just coming at you with another perspective. I didn't understand it. I don't know why you did that.

Alban 30:34

Oh, we had number four on my list of uh is um reliable. We already touched on this, but you need people who show up.

Kevin 30:43

And and not just show up, but do the work, right? Like, like what what good is it for somebody who shows up every week on time, but like never reads the outline and has no idea what you're talking about? That's not helpful. If right?

Jordan 30:54

Unless they have hot takes.

Alban 30:56

If the deal is I show up and I don't read the outline, but I'm doing all sorts of other stuff behind the scenes and everyone's cool with it, that works. Just make sure it's written into your contract.

Kevin 31:08

So when you get called out on it, you're like, Yeah.

Alban 31:11

Well, you don't need an actual contract, but it is good to have written down like four bullet points. Like, here's what we're all contributing so that people know, like, okay, I am pulling the weight that the team has asked me to pull and I'm doing my part. I mean, part of what you're contributing to this show, Kevin, is paying us money to work. If we didn't make money from Buzz Prout, we'd be like, hey, does it feel like we're getting our some of our part from this podcast?

Kevin 31:38

Yeah. It just sounds like when you say it like that, it just sounds like part of our relationship and like why we're friendly and laugh at you is because you pay us to laugh at you. I like you're just laughing. You're just a clown with money. You're not a very good clown.

Alban 31:52

Clown with money. Oh man, my favorite thing as a kid was you remember uh Bozo the clown? That it was like on Saturday mornings, and they would like put money in the like bucket so the kids could throw a ping pong ball into it, they'd get the hundred dollars. Remember as a kid being like, that would be the most amazing show to be on. And now I'm on that show. If I show up and do a podcast, I get a hundred dollars. That's right. Just keep laughing at Bozo's jokes. Uh, number, uh, number five, recurring source of material. So there are people who are interesting, and you interview them one time and you're just like, oh my gosh, they have so much to say. But have you seen these podcasts that they start off so strong, but then eventually they're kind of just doing the same show over and over. And yeah, the good example for uh for me was do either you know who Chris Voss is, he was a FBI negotiator and he wrote a book called Never Split the Difference. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And the book was awesome. And it was really it there was lots of great stories and lots of good tactics and lots of things that were applicable. Book did really well. And then he did a master class and he did a podcast, and he did some videos, and he did a series. And at some point, it was like every list of like people you should learn about was like the negotiator, Chris Foss. I was like, it's kind of the same thing again and again. None of it was bad, it was just like there were 12 solid stories, and at some point you got 12 stories. So if he could tell us, like, hey, I just got out of another negotiation and it was a hostage here, let me tell you, there'd be new material each time. Um so you want someone who like naturally, whatever the topic is, is coming up with new material over the course of the podcast. So for the two of you, it's we work in podcasting. And Kevin's like, oh, I just was working on this feature buzz prowl over the week. Here's what I'm doing. What do you guys think? And George's going, I was trying to do this edit, and I was running into these issues with the frame rate on our video. So that will be a topic we'll probably pick up when we talk about video at some point. We're all running into stuff, so there are things to talk about, uh, versus showing up and going, either you have any other cool stories from back when you used to do that thing. Nope. Okay, let's let's pick up one of the old ones. Yeah.

Jordan 34:26

And I think that kind of goes hand in hand with us having such different like personalities and backgrounds and interests and stuff like that. It it adds a lot more interest and texture to the show than it would be if we like, I don't know, if we all were just on the same. I almost hate saying this because I feel like I'm gonna get hate mail for this. I'm not targeting somebody, but it might feel like I am. But like if you were um castmates on a TV show and you have a rewatch podcast talking about it, like you're you both had like the same experience on that television show. You know what I mean?

Alban 34:59

Wait, wait, are you are you hating on office ladies?

Jordan 35:02

I'm not hating on it. I actually have never listened to it. I'm sure it's great. I'm sure it's wonderful. I was just I was just thinking, like, they're they're very similar people in my mind. And I'm probably just projecting like my my views of them, but they seem like very similar people with very similar experiences on a the exact same show.

Alban 35:22

I mean, we we all work for the same company, so we're the office ladies of podcasting.

Jordan 35:29

Yes, that's gonna be our tagline Buzzcast, the Office Ladies of Podcasting.

Kevin 35:34

I think you raise an interesting point, Jordan. And and that like we're giving our opinion on the types of shows and the personalities and like uh the the healthy tensions and stuff that we find interesting, but that's not it's not prescriptive. It's not for everyone. And you could anybody could probably find examples of shows that work that are fly in the face of all the advice that we're giving. And so like we're just trying our best to give you ideas to help that like something something like one or two ideas might resonate with you and help get you in the right direction if you're looking for a co-host or to add somebody to your show. But it doesn't mean that you might say, Oh my gosh, my this person who I really think is a great co-host. I've never met them in real life. They have the exact same voices I do. We they sound identical, and we agree on everything. That doesn't mean that that can't be a great show.

Jordan 36:21

Right.

Kevin 36:21

It totally could. We're just trying to give you ideas and paint like an ideal based on the experience that we have in podcasting. Office ladies, like the idea of that doesn't really resonate with you, but it resonates with lots and lots of people. Millions of very popular shows, very successful.

Jordan 36:36

Yeah.

Kevin 36:37

And so that's a fair point.

Alban 36:38

I'm glad you made it. Um, and last two are related. Uh, one is you want the podcast to be relatively high signal. So high signal meaning most of what's being said is valuable. There's not a bunch of noise and a bunch of just stuff that's like throwaway lines. You don't have a bunch of, oh, I kind of think I know what I'm talking about. Let me go Google it in the middle of the episode and try to make it work. And so the last thing I wrote was they're okay being edited. And I think a lot of podcasts are, I mean, this podcast in particular, drastically improved by Jordan's edit. If you just had me talking for an hour, it would be actually an hour and a half, and you'd get 30 minutes of absolute like nobody wanted to hear that. So you get at least it gets when it gets cut, the signal goes up. It's a higher signal. And you can get people who get their feelings hurt when stuff gets edited out. You think your joke landed perfectly and now it feels bad that someone cut it. The edit is a gift, and you've just got to accept that someone has to make the call and it's going to make a podcast better.

Editing Trust And High Signal

Jordan 37:49

Yeah, I've seen this a lot um in the podcasting space, like especially online communities or people asking questions or getting advice. Also, podcasters I know personally um have had co-hosts where they will cut something because they didn't feel like it was accurate, like someone was just spewing information, but it wasn't actually based in any research. It was just an opinion that they were stating as fact, which was like maybe hurtful in some way or not conducive to the conversation. And they had to cut it, and then the co-host got like upset about it. It is important to have somebody that like fully understands like we we gotta make this podcast the best that it is. And someone's gonna mess up at some point and it's gonna get cut, and you know what? Just it's okay.

Alban 38:33

And and sometimes the the edit might be the mistake. You might cut something that would have worked, but you can't spend the entire time editing, going, oh my gosh, are my co-hosts gonna get mad if I cut this? Are they gonna send me in a message and make me defend myself? You just you're working through it, you're probably spending two times as much uh time editing as it was to record. So I think there should be a bit of grace given to the person doing the edit. And we just have to say, if it's not you, you gotta release like some of your best jokes are gonna get cut.

Kevin 39:06

But that's a healthy dialogue. And uh, it's not one that we have very often on this show. Jordan does a great job. And and again, our relationship is is a little bit different in that we have known each other. We've been doing the show for a long time. And and so it's hard for me to remember exactly what it was like in the early days of episodes that we were doing together. But I do think there were more notes after Jordan would do the edit. I might go back and leave a note like, oh, I I wish before you published, can you cut this little part out? I really didn't like, I probably shouldn't have said that, or maybe I spoke a little out of turn, or that joke didn't land the way I wanted it to. Um, that stuff probably hasn't happened in the last year or so, but maybe in the beginning that stuff happened more often. I also think it's fine for like the editor, like to have the back and forth. The, oh, I really like that segment where we talked about this, but when it came out in the final episode, it got cut down to almost nothing. And for the editor to be able to say, I liked it too, but um it was like 10 minutes for you to make this one point. And I tried to try to tighten it up, but I just couldn't. So I ended up having to cut the whole thing. Like at the end of the day, it's you're you're you're not a magician when you're doing editing. You only have the material to work with. And sometimes you can tighten it up and sometimes you can't. And if you can't, you got to cut the whole thing. So then the the editor can say back to the person who was doing the 10-minute rant, I wish you would listen back to the episode too, and maybe figure out how we can gather our thoughts a little bit more beforehand, or so you can you can tighten it up yourself. So then I don't have as much work to do in editing because you want to be able to sharpen each other. Like when you're working with somebody, doing something that you like and enjoy, that we should be making each other better, not like every time we have a conflict or a mismatch, we end up feeling deflated or gosh, why am I doing this with this person? They don't get me.

Jordan 40:43

I think that you are going to experience those kind of um growing pains or those kind of, I don't know, moments of tension and like trying to navigate like what this working relationship is because it was so strange for me because I came in as a Buzzcast super fan. Like I had listened to all the episodes at least twice over. And I love the show. And so I came in being like, yeah, I'm gonna kill it. Like I got this. And then it was like, not that. Like we had notes pretty consistently for like the first like year, I would say. And then I kind of got into the, okay, now I fully understand Alban's way of thinking, Kevin's way of thinking. I can look at a situation or a dialogue and like picture it through your lens and make the call of like, okay, I know that they're gonna say this. I know that they're gonna say that. I feel confident in that. And it's because of those pain points where we had to like kind of get in the groove and communicate with each other that this isn't working, or I don't like that, or you know, this isn't landing as well as I wanted it to. Can you tighten this up or, you know, whatever? Those kind of back and forths, like in the moment, it can feel like, oh, I'm doing a bad job. But really, what it is is it's just this moment of learning and you're you're figuring out how things are operating.

Kevin 42:03

Yeah. I think you guys both know this, but there was a time in the beginning when Jordan would always get the edit in and get the episode ready to publish Thursday night and it would drop Friday morning. But I would always listen Thursday night. I always log into the BuzzPrat account and listen. Now, sometimes I still do because I just like like getting better as a podcaster. And so I just like self-critique. But now it's just turned into I'm listening like for the benefit of making myself a better podcaster, not checking the final edit, not making sure that something didn't slip through that we said, oh, let's let's cut that out. I actually don't want that in the final episode or something like that. Um, and so what happens is like your trust battery grows. And so as Jordan said, as like just the longer we work together, there's no more like I don't feel any burden anymore to be like, I have to go back and check Jordan's work, or she might make me sound dumb or something like that. Like, I do a plenty of good job of making myself sound dumb. Jordan's job is to make him sound smart. And I trust her implicitly now to do that because she's done it so well for so long. And so I that's so great when you turn that corner and there's trust on both sides. Like Jordan said, um, she has to make calls and she doesn't necessarily have the time or want to bother Alban or I always with uh I gotta know. Like, how should I do this edit? Well, she knows us well enough now, and we trust her well enough now that it's just so smooth and and and wonderful. So anyway, I hope all of our fans who are listening to the show find somebody like that for your show. But that trust level, that trust battery thing, that just takes time, regardless of whether you you end up going into a co-ho situation with somebody you've known for 20 years or not. This is a new endeavor. And so it's going to take time for that trust to build on both sides as you do this new thing together.

Alban 43:35

Yeah, Kevin, I've got a story that I don't think I've ever told you from our very first episode. So this would have been the first one we ever did with Travis. We did a recording as a group. We all listened to it. We all wrote notes and we handed them to Travis. He added it. We listened to it again. We handed him notes. I don't know if we went for like a third round, but I had one where I went through and I just had tons. Of notes and they were like weird ways that said something or weird ums or here's a weird a strange aside, that's not working. And I just posted it and Travis was like, hey, just heads up, like, there's no way we're gonna be able to do these podcasts if this is the level of notes. And you chimed in before I even saw it and said, I don't think Alban's giving you notes on what to do. He's giving notes for himself because they were all notes on my own time. If I'm being honest, I don't know which way my notes were intended, but they were definitely good for me to read even if I wasn't giving them to Travis for him to fix. It was very good in the beginning for me to listen to the podcast with that level of detail because I learned so much about how I talk. And there are lots of things that I was able to improve just a normal conversation. I'm like, oh, I have like some weird ticks. I see some filler words that I am using pretty consistently that it would be helpful if I could drop out. And just listening with that critical eye, I can now go and write myself notes that I never share with Jordan because they're not important to be edited out of the one episode. Much more valuable will be some future edits in my own head, you know, noticing I don't do as well with some of these things off the top of my head. It would be better if I wrote down a couple thoughts beforehand, which I've kind of taken to doing over time. So maybe don't post everything, but maybe do go right and give yourself some good notes.

Kevin 45:37

Yeah. And I mean, maybe I can try to land the planner a little bit or put a little bow on that present. I I think my takeaway from what you just shared is maybe one of the ways to help you find a great co-host is to work on yourself like being the best co-host that you could be.

Alban 45:52

Oh, that's a relationship advice right there.

Kevin 45:54

Is that some relationship advice?

Alban 45:56

Yeah, you gotta do it. Like sometimes it's all about finding the perfect person. Maybe it's about being the person that deserves that person. Nice.

Kevin 46:07

And then you could post that in your subreddit that I have perfected being a podcast co-host and now I am looking for someone to compliment me.

Alban 46:14

I have done a lot of work on myself with my podcast counselor.

Jordan 46:19

That is usually a green flag for when you're dating. If someone has ever been to therapy, you're like, check, great. You know, actually, speaking of check boxes, yeah. We got a family message from uh Twilo Zone Media. I'm gonna put my glasses on here because it's been hard for me to read. So Twylo Zone Media wrote in and said, my approach probably isn't very common or widely recommended, but it came out of necessity. I'm not a very social person. And when I started Steel Watching, I really didn't know anyone in the Remington Steel fan community. So this is a TV show. He says, I knew I wanted a co-host. So I posted a brief note in a Facebook fan group explaining that I was starting a podcast about the show and looking for someone interested in co-hosting. But here's where he did a little, that's a little bit different. He said, I had specific qualities in mind, but I didn't include those publicly. Instead, I treated it like an open call. Several people reached out and I scheduled 30-minute Zoom calls to learn about their history with the show and get a feel for how we might interact. And luckily, one of the applicants met every single criterion I had in mind, even though I hadn't shared them. We've now been doing the show together for about five years and are nearing the end of the series. And I think this is so smart because I mean, I'm gonna, we're circling back to dating again. When you have these like profiles, like these online dating profiles, it's very easy to like write down everything that you're looking for in a partner. And then like a guy's gonna see that and be like, well, I could do that. I could, yeah, I can be that guy. I can be in an animals, like it, but really at their core, they're not that person. And I'm gonna use a reference that you guys probably aren't gonna get, but it's it's perfect. It's so good. What Twylo Zone Media did is more like Practical Magic. So in the movie, she writes down all the qualities that she's looking for in a perfect man in her diary, and then she like releases those qualities into the wind. And like later he comes to her and he just like matches all those things.

Kevin 48:20

You know, Jordan, I can't believe you said that. I was thinking the exact same thing.

Jordan 48:26

You don't strike me as a Practical Magic guy, but it's a good movie, I swear.

Alban 48:31

So write down a few of the ideas that the things that you're hoping for, the tone, the vibe. If you're going to meet somebody and try to figure out does this person match up, maybe you haven't shared every single one of those. So you can see, are we naturally on the same page? Is that that's what I'm taking from this.

Jordan 48:49

Yes. Like, is this person at their core what I'm looking for? And are they going to align with what I'm searching for naturally? Because that's just who they are, as opposed to I'm looking for someone who can this. It's like when you put out like a job search, right? Like you post all these things and then people write in the resume, like, yeah, I've got experience in Excel and like da-da-da-da-da. Even if they don't, and they're just gonna like YouTube it later. Right. Right.

Alban 49:14

You put the application out and or you say, Here's what we want the person to have, and then they take their application and and your requirements, they throw it to Chat GPT and say, update my application so it fits this, and they send it back. So maybe it would be valuable to hold back a few of the things and say, hey, if we were to do a Remington Steel podcast together, what would the tone be? And if they're like, oh man, it wasn't on the requirement sheet. But what I would like for it to be is uh really relaxed and kind of goofy, but I do want to get into like the moral aspects of the show. I have no idea what this show is about, but I'm just kind of off the top of my head coming up with something. But and then you're like, oh, exactly. I've always found the moral dilemmas to be really val you know interesting. Okay, cool. So we do align on that, even though I didn't write it in the Facebook post, you know, request.

Kevin 50:04

I haven't seen Practical Magic, but there's a show that I have seen called Love on the Spectrum. And if you guys are familiar with that, they often This is my favorite, yeah. So these are like dating shows, they're trying to find matches, and they often have criteria sheets. And the one episode that I've seen recently, somebody had a criteria sheet of like likes nature and like doesn't like breakfast and stuff. And yeah, I know exactly what you talk and does I've seen this too. Yeah, as soon as that like doesn't like nature, like the person like writes them off completely. They're like, eh.

Alban 50:37

Like he gets you like I don't really like going outside, and he goes, like, hates nature and crosses her name out, just and then they're like, Hey, maybe next time uh wait till she leaves the table before you cross her name, just did it right in front of her. And he's like, Oh, I'm sorry. Did I I probably shouldn't have done that?

Kevin 50:57

Yeah. Oh, I mean, maybe if you do audition people for your podcast, and if they don't match your criteria, like don't tell them right there in the moment.

Jordan 51:05

Yeah.

Kevin 51:07

Oh weird.

Jordan 51:08

Oh man.

Kevin 51:09

Such a great show, actually. It's the sweetest show on television.

Alban 51:12

It is so good, it is so wholesome, and I mean, there's stuff to learn from how they approach relationships that's so innocent and kind. Uh I loved it. Yeah.

Kevin 51:23

All right, guys. So, so tell me, once we find somebody now, like how do we how do we seal the deal? So I'm sort of an 80s, 90s kid when we were dating, when we were in high school in college and we were dating and we found somebody, like at some point we would have a uh what would we call it? What's the acronym? Uh DTR conversation to define the relationship talk. Like you've been going out for a little while. So maybe I'm gonna like get a reservation at a little nicer restaurant tonight. You know, again, high school, college money. So maybe it's like a chili's or an Applebee's, and we're gonna we're gonna go have a nice whatever meal at Applebee's, and we're gonna define the relationship.

Write Expectations Before Problems

Kevin 52:00

So if we're ready to lock this in, I found somebody who I think is my co-host. What do I need to do?

Alban 52:05

I am of the opinion that there's a big gap between we just wing it and we're forming an LLC and we're writing up a partnership agreement. And I think both of those are like misses, and there's a big gap in the middle that's like we just write up a shared Apple note with a couple of ideas. Kevin and I are starting a podcast. We both own it 50-50. I'm gonna edit, he's gonna do the promotion. We're going to shoot to record on Wednesday nights around six, unless we have to move it. If we ever made any money on it, we'd both get half of it. And if either of us ever want to quit, the other one can find a new co-host. That's it. Like, I'm not thinking you write, you know, really long. What which state, if you sue me, do you have to sue me in? And what's the venue and all that? Just like the main points, because then when there's a conflict and I you don't feel like one person's doing the edit and the other one didn't really make any shorts and promote it, you can say, Hey, this is our deal. You know, remember we wrote that shared Apple note. Are you able to keep up with this side of it, or do I need to take on something and you and we swap some responsibilities? So just setting the basis for the relationship, I think, is good.

Kevin 53:19

All right. So it's it sounds like you're suggesting like this is an accountability agreement. It's not a legal document. This isn't designed to hold up at mediation or arbitration or whatever legal term. I don't know.

Alban 53:29

Wherever you wherever you end up in conflict.

Kevin 53:32

But it's a it's a document that helps you have accountability in the case that one party feels like the other party isn't living up to this agreement. Like, hey, we wrote this down, and so there should be less ambiguity about like when we said Wednesday at six, but for the last three Wednesdays in a row, you've had to move it. That doesn't feel like living up to the agreement to me. Like, can you tell me what's going on? Do we need to choose another date and time? Or is this a bigger issue?

Alban 53:57

Yeah, I'm always surprised um with my legal background, how quickly people went from we haven't really had a tough conversation yet, I'm ready to go hire a lawyer. And you're like, there's a big spectrum between, I mean, filing suit, you're gonna be saving so much money and you're thinking already about if we got this to trial, who's gonna win? I'm like, but I think there's so many times I was advising people maybe what you need to do is ask. You know, we get these with Buzz Brow. People will write in and say, Hey, this episode went live and I think it's kind of talking about me, so it's defamation, take it down. And sometimes we'll look at it and go, We don't think it's rise to the level that someone violated our terms of service and should be taken down. Have you tried reaching out to the podcast host and telling them, no? Okay, would you like me to? We could write them and say, Hey, this bothers them and they're worried that it's gonna impact their reputation. Would you take it down? And you'd just be shocked. It's like 60% of the time a simple ask works. So if you feel like something's going wrong with your podcast and your co-host and you've written down three bullet points and say, Hey, I don't feel like this is working out and it bothers me, there's a lot of opportunity for that to be fixed just from a very minor hard conversation.

Jordan 55:19

Doing something so simple as setting these expectations, because if you do not express what expectations are in the in the beginning, that is going to create a lot of like discord later on. And it's it's so important to just set those because it's going to make everything so much easier for you. And podcasting should be fun. We have said this a million times. Podcasting should be fun. And if you already have all of this stuff out of the way at the beginning of the podcast like relationship, it's going to be so much easier to move forward through your podcasting journey.

Alban 55:54

All right. So great ex story from this. Uh, my dad, uh, when we were really young, he went to law school late and then he had a federal clerkship. And so he's working for this judge, and day two, they're there and it's like seven, and it's eight, and no one's leaving the office. It's eight thirty, and he's got kids at home. And he goes, Hey, what what time do we leave? And they go, We don't we wait till the judge leaves, then we leave. And he's like, But it's eight thirty. It's nine. And they're like, Yeah, we just leave when the judge leaves. And he goes, That doesn't really make sense. And he just walked in, federal judge and says, Hey judge, what time do we uh are we done with work here? And he goes, Huh. No one's ever asked. I mean, definitely by seven. And it was nine o'clock then.

Jordan 56:42

Oh my gosh.

Alban 56:43

Forever everyone had assumed you cannot leave until the judge has left. He just loved his job, so he stayed late and he kept working. He had no expectation that everybody else would stay beyond when he stayed. And so one mildly hard conversation, day two, relieved everybody who worked for him after that from hours and hours of kind of sitting around when they didn't have work to do.

Kevin 57:06

Alban, you're the person in my life who gave me this advice, is that um I don't necessarily shy away from hard conversations all that often, but I don't like them because I I do know that they can be taken the wrong way. And sometimes you have to work through conflict. Now, I I always get excited because growth always comes on the back end of conflict. I know that is true in my life, but it's it's always important to remember that if you're usually having to address somebody with something about something, like an agreement that you have that you don't feel like they're living up to, like you're not the one making it awkward. Like they're the ones that made it awkward by not holding up their end of the agreement, right? Like that should be the basis for the conversation. Um, it doesn't necessarily make it easier, but at least you can go in like and confidently say, this is just my read on the situation. I'm hope, hopefully you can explain to me why I'm reading it wrong. But we said we're gonna show up every Wednesday at six o'clock and record this, and for the last three Wednesdays, you haven't. Um, so I don't like making this a thing. I don't want to make it a bigger thing. But how do we resolve it? Like, is Wednesdays at six work for you? Do we need to choose another time? Is the podcast just not something that's fun in your life? But again, you're not the one who did it. Like they did. They didn't show up.

Alban 58:11

Yeah, I think the the first time I realized this was somebody lied to me, and I was like, oh, I kind of have to bring this up, but I'm gonna, I I don't I hate to make this weird. And I went, wait a second, I'm not making this weird. They made it weird by lying to me. And now I have to be the one to say it. That's not weird. Yeah, it's normal to say, hey man, don't like it when you lie to me.

Jordan 58:30

That's so common to be like, oh, I don't want to be a jerk, like by confronting them about their bad behavior. Right.

Kevin 58:38

Well, that's that's good. It doesn't, it sounds like we're all aligned, which I know is boring podcast content, but we all agree there should be some sort of expectation set. Ideally, you could write those down. They don't need to be too detailed, you don't need to get the gold medallion medallion stamp and the notarized deal. Um, I think a simple pinprick and putting your blood print on it is enough. In most cases are podcasts. More than enough. Some kind of agent rich.

Jordan 59:02

That's what we do at Buzzsprout.

Kevin 59:03

Right. But then the harder part would be then, of course, once if somebody falls short, and maybe it's you, maybe you have to have like a confessional to your podcast host is if if the vi if the agreement gets violated on one side or the other, you have to be able to maybe be strong enough to have that conversation with them, or maybe call them up and just say, hey, I have to confess. Like I don't feel good about I haven't been able to hold up my end of the agreement. So uh I know that might be hard for you to say, so I'm gonna take the big step and say it first, but I want to resolve it. But either way, setting expectations up front and then doing your best that you can as a as a partner in the podcast with the other people to live up to your end and hold them accountable for their end. I think that's the healthiest way to run a show.

Fan Mail

Jordan 59:46

All right, let's get into some fan mail. So, first up, we have a message from Chris from Podcastic Audio. And Chris said, Your video looks so good. I'm getting distracted. How beautiful you all look. I'm sorry. What did you say? I was distracted by the video. I might need to turn the video off and listen.

Kevin 1:00:07

Jordan, the dramatic reading is over the top.

Alban 1:00:10

Very kind of you, Chris. I'm pretty sure uh that fan mail was addressed to Kevin and Jordan.

Kevin 1:00:16

Oh, definitely. Um I think that's worth commenting on just a little bit. There, there's a lot of video podcasts that are starting to come online. Well, I'm getting exposed to more of them. Again, I'm not a YouTube person, so now that they're coming to Apple Podcasts, I'm seeing more and more of them. And there is a pretty big like difference between some video quality in the different podcasts. And I'm not sure that like I don't think we're doing anything special. I will tell you that we are recording our own videos locally and then like syncing them up afterward, like so that can make a difference in the quality. But I don't know. I'm gonna continue to think about that and and and dig into that because like we're just publishing, maybe it's these uh remote recording solutions and stuff that other people are using. Maybe there's more degradation happening. Chris, anyway, I'm interested. Are you giving us like personal compliments? I need to know. Are you saying a beautiful game? Is there a video game?

Jordan 1:01:05

Are you saying beautiful? Here's my video.

Kevin 1:01:09

I have to know. And I swear I'm asking for technical reasons, not for vanity. Although, like on a scale of one to ten, like how hot am I? Actually, I take the compliment both ways because I also write the text. So, like, either way, I'm flattered.

Alban 1:01:23

Uh, we got another fan mail from uh Brendan and Juan in the morning. Recently, we've been featured on Apple's home pages for video. Congratulations, that's awesome. Um, and we have been getting a lot of negative ratings. Oh no. Okay, you gotta read the whole thing. Um, how would you recommend processing and improving these ratings and not getting bummed out about them? All right. I went and read a few of these reviews and ratings, and it pretty much looks like the show has a ton of five stars and recently got hit by a bunch of one stars. So it's people who showed up went, I hate it, and they uh gave it a ding. Some of them, it's just clear that it's people who they aren't actually interested in the podcast itself. So they it's a movie, it looks like they talk about movies and do movie reviews, and they don't like the subject. So I'm guessing a lot of these reviews are not necessarily people who listened and thought you were doing a bad job of a podcast. They're people that Apple promoted you to, and the positive is you do get a lot of exposure. The downside is that exposure is often to people who aren't a perfect fit for the podcast. They don't necessarily like the vibe or the subject matter, uh, or maybe they're confused by the name, and so they showed up looking for a different type of podcast. So I hear you. When we started um getting more promotion on YouTube, we ran into this as well. I remember somebody wrote a comment that said, Hey, next episode, why don't you try nailing your hands to the table so you stop using them so much in the video? You're like, okay.

Kevin 1:03:00

That was me. My bad, Alban. Sorry. Uh I was just trying to be direct. I was no.

Alban 1:03:06

I mean, another one. Uh, we got one of those just like tip typical soy boy. And you're like, what? What does that even mean?

Kevin 1:03:14

I think I know what it means. Not good.

Alban 1:03:16

You had a bunch of you drink a lot of soy milk and look effeminate or something. It's just like people will just write mean stuff.

Kevin 1:03:23

And apparently some of them stuck with me. You should never do stuff like that. I I think that's where it crosses the lines. Like when you start calling people names, and then especially names that like other people are more effeminate, and like shut up. Like, that's there's nothing wrong with that. Use that, don't use that as a cut down. Anyway, I hate all of it. I just don't understand why it exists, but it does. But here's here's the one thing like silver lining guy, that's who I am. I just always find the silver lining. So I will give you the silver lining. The silver lining of the hey, the most popular shows in the world, the most popular things in the world, they they always have their critics. And some of those critics are very vocal. The reality is, is they're not probably the majority of people who listen to your show. There's there's just enough and they make a lot of noise. But if you're going to get any like level of success and if you're going to put your creation and your art out to the world, then that's just part of what comes with it. But recognize that the most successful people always have critics that follow along with it. Jordan does a great thing where she just does, she she has like a filter. You want to tell them how you like you filter your podcast reviews.

Jordan 1:04:26

Yeah, I hate ratings and reviews so much that I do like a buddy system. Um, I like to live in like delusion because I do my best work in that delusional world. And so my husband will check my ratings and reviews. I will never, ever, ever look at comments, ratings, or reviews because I hate getting feedback from just like randos on the internet. And so my husband will like just kind of check periodically. And if he sees a nice five-star review, he will like screenshot it and text it to me. You should do this. Like, especially if you are getting hurt and you like really love podcasting and you're enjoying what you're doing. Like, it's it's hard to shut out people who are being negative on the internet. You will get five million good like reviews, and then you get one or two that are just devastating or just mean, and it can really like knock you down and kind of get you off track. So I recommend doing the buddy system thing. Like, have a friend, have your mom or your sister or cousin or whatever, like look at your reviews periodically and then just like send you the nice ones.

Alban 1:05:33

You know, you you could also get some of these actually removed by Apple. If they do cross the line into they're just attacking you, it's not about, it's not a review of the show. It's just like kind of mean spirited. Um, didn't wasn't it you, Kevin? Your s or your son who ran into this at some point when he did the show during COVID?

Kevin 1:05:52

Yeah. When my son was, I think, 12 years old, he started a podcast with some of his friends. They were out of school on COVID lockdown, and I thought it would be fun for them to start a podcast. So they started doing like uh movie reviews, and uh it was just a fun show of three 12-year-old kids, and people would go in on the comments and they'd be like, This is terrible. Like, these kids have no idea of what like a like about the movie or this take is stupid. But then there were some that would go way beyond that and just like say mean personal things to 12-year-old kids. Anyway, the point that Alban's making is that uh there was one or two of them where I did just write Apple and just be like, This doesn't seem to add any value and it's attacking children. Can would you guys be open to removing it? And within a couple days, it was gone. And so Apple is awesome about stuff like that. They should be either like criticisms of the content itself, and if there's anything that falls outside of the boundaries there, Apple's usually pretty good at working with you, at taking it down.

Jordan 1:06:43

Thank you both so much for writing in. I actually really enjoy getting these kind of like feedback and advice messages from our listeners. So if you want us to give you some real-time advice, go ahead and tap the send us fam mail link in the show notes. And until next time, thanks for listening and keep podcasting.

Post Show: Congrats To The Couple-To-Be

Jordan 1:07:05

So, Alban, you are officiating a wedding this weekend.

Alban 1:07:09

Uh yes, I was actually up till 2:30 last night working on the like little speech that I'm giving. I've my friends speech, or is it like a sermon?

Kevin 1:07:22

So are you approaching this?

Alban 1:07:23

Honestly, it is a sermon, but I'm not a pastor, and so I feel very awkward saying sermon. Now, uh-huh. They did say when I I met with um my friend is future wife, and I said, you know, we talked through what do you want out of the service.

Kevin 1:07:39

There's a name for future wife. Do you know that as an as a wedding officiant?

Alban 1:07:43

Um I was thinking it was something with benefits, and I couldn't get it right. You're right. Okay. No, no. Beyonce. Nice.

Jordan 1:07:50

Well, Elvin, you had a fiance at one point.

Kevin 1:07:52

Beyoncé. You need to nail the terminology before you go do this wedding. All right.

Alban 1:07:59

You know, so I got the terminology locked in. I'm gonna give a sermon to the couple to be.

Jordan 1:08:09

I couldn't even do that.

Kevin 1:08:13

Bride and groom. They are bride and groom, not couple to groom to be. Nice.

Jordan 1:08:18

To be fair, Alban was up until 2:30 working on this. So like he's not firing all cylinders.

Kevin 1:08:23

Lord, if you get in front of the wedding party and say couple to be, that's gonna like that's why I'm writing it out. It's all written. I've got a bunch of good stuff. Um I'm sorry. You seem a little flustered right now, Pastor Alban. Resume your story. How is this wedding going down?

Alban 1:08:42

I'm shooting for like four minutes. What do you guys think about that? I the first thing I thought was I was in a wedding. I was a groomsman, and it we had a straight 45-minute sermon. Uh-huh. And I'm sure I remember my mom was there and she was like, wow, that was one of the best sermons I've ever heard. And I was like, the whole time I just thought, don't pass out. Like my knees are locking, don't pass out. Like, don't fall over on somebody. Uh so my thought was three to five minutes. That's the sweet spot. Try to give a couple interesting non-cliche thoughts and move on. Any uh any feedback on that?

Jordan 1:09:21

I mean, that's exactly what I asked for for my wedding. Like it was my father-in-law who uh officiated because he's a pastor, and he asked me what I wanted, and I said quick and dirty. Like, just I want to get people to the like reception and just what's the dirty part?

Kevin 1:09:37

I understand the quick. Like you wanted him to drop a few crude jokes.

Jordan 1:09:41

No, I just like like the filthiest joke you've ever heard.

Kevin 1:09:46

Please drop it at my wedding.

Jordan 1:09:48

Please put it. He would too. He's funny.

Alban 1:09:52

Okay, that's one thing I did take out. I think there's times where the officiant goes in there and they've got like jokes. And they're like, this isn't stand up. It's like, and most of the jokes are like weirdly misogynistic or like I don't know, cynical. It's like, this is the best it's ever gonna be. When you fight, make sure you remember she's always right, or at least tell her she is. And I'm like, I hate that. Why would you put that in like this is your one moment to tell them hey, here's how to set you up for your next hopefully 40, 50 years of life together. And you decided to use, like, hey, here's a joke I watched in a show that was on TV in the 70s.

Kevin 1:10:33

Well, you're talking about like bad jokes specifically. Bad joke, uh, that's no good. If you've got a if you've got if you've got a zinger, like a really good one, I would go for it. I'd go all in. I would do it dramatically, just like Jordan read that fan mail. Like, just lay it all out on the table, try to get all the attention on you, all the laughs your way. I sorry. Hand out business cards, anybody else getting married in the crowd, work the crowd, maybe you can get more business.

Alban 1:10:59

Um, what's your relationship with the bridegroom? Oh, the father. Oh, okay. Trying to do a little crowd work.

Kevin 1:11:06

Um, okay, so no jokes. What about have you have you considered magic? Like it would be fun if you had a magic trick. Oh, right? What kind of magic are you going to work into this? I don't know. I imagine like what if they walk up? What if the bride and groom walk up, but you haven't appeared yet, and then boom, puff of smoke, and then you're you emerge from the mist.

Alban 1:11:29

Oh, like Michael Jackson in the 92 Super Bowl, like jumping out of the smoke. Yeah, you shoot up from the bottom of the steps.

Jordan 1:11:38

Yeah, yes.

Alban 1:11:39

I will look into that when I get to the venue to see if that's an opportunity. Besides that, I don't I don't know if magic is in the cards for me.

Jordan 1:11:47

In the cards? It was some puns.

Alban 1:11:51

Nice pickup, Jordan.

Jordan 1:11:52

I think you should do it. It's great. Like pull pull the ring out from behind the groom's ear.

Alban 1:11:57

Oh, I was at a wedding where the ring was lost mid-ceremony. They put the ring, you could just see it coming a mile away. They had like a three-year-old nephew, and they gave him a little pillow for the to be the ring bearer, and they put the ring on top. Typically, you don't give the ring bearer the actual ring or it's secured. Neither was done. Outdoor wedding, St. Augustine grass, and it's thick. Ring falls in right in front of the bride, and it's like five minutes of everyone on hands and knees digging, trying to find it.

Jordan 1:12:30

Oh my god.

Alban 1:12:31

They found it, but it's like you just knew it was gonna happen the whole way. He's walking and wobbling, and you're just waiting for the inevitable.

Kevin 1:12:39

I like it. That feels like a setup. It just feels like it's fantastic. And then you, you, as the magician officiant, could have like appeared the ring out of the bride's mouth or something like that. Like she's coughing all of a sudden then spits it up.

Alban 1:12:52

Oh, it was behind your ear the whole time. Yeah. I now pronounce you man and wife.

Kevin 1:12:58

All right. Well, that's awesome. Good luck, have fun, and congrats to the couple to be, as they as they say in the biz. Couple to be